I'm still of the opinion that one tank can work well for us, if the stun is applied at the correct time by pre-empting it instead of trying to interrupt it.
Hell, two tanks is working fine for us as is. We could have probably 24 manned it tonight if we could have recovered from the second burrow.
Our healers are saying no, and understandably so. Here's the numbers.
Those guys were, on average, hitting Orky for about 5k a swing. Let's lowball it and just say it was 3.5k on average. Their attack speed, baseline, is likely that of a normal mob - so about 2 seconds.
So without Spider Frenzy they're hitting Orky for approx. 14k every 2 seconds. That's certainly healable.
But then you factor in that each buff is a 100% attack speed increase.
That brings their attack speed down to 0.5 seconds per swing, which gives them 28k damage per second done to Orky.
Looking at the first pull of the night on parses, this is what it looked like for the last second Orky was alive (warning, lots of text):
Non-blocked attacks nonwithstanding, Orky was hit eight times in one second.
Orky taking 28k damage (approximately) per second, while only having somewhere in the neighborhood of 40-42k health raidbuffed in his "unhittable" set, means the heals have to be VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY fast. Otherwise, Orky will die in two seconds flat. And we're not even factoring in Shadow Strike into the mix (which, if properly stunned, would not be a factor - but that's another story).
That, and the fact that we've become most accustomed to a two-tank strat (which is most forgiving on our healing situation), tells me that we probably should keep it with three tanks, four healers. If we dropped a tank we'd have to pick up *at least* one more healer, which renders the transition a moot point.
Well it didn't work for us cause of several reasons tonight.
1. Orky got hit. Not quite unhittable? Or just got behind?
2. Orky being just barely at unhittable means the 2nd priority wasn't looked into. Block Value. That is what's needed to make the hits smaller.
Here's a vid of a One Tank strat, from that tank's PoV, maybe ignore how they kited though.
You'll notice a few things. The blocked hits were never above 3K. I calculate to achieve such a thing if Orky was taking 5K blocks, he's about 600 block value behind that tank.
A 2nd thing to make is how the adds are simply drawn to the permafrost. We def had issues with people not adjusting to permafrost (hiding behind them) which made adds come in at weird angles on some attempts.
A 3rd thing is that they kill the adds in about 20 seconds flat. At our best we were doing it at 30-35 seconds. Besides pushing buttons harder, getting adds to move in faster.... If possible, everyone should probably look into a more aoe oriented spec (within reason that doesn't totally gimp the single target dps).
As for the Shadow Strike, I think people are still under the misconception that a visible cast bar interrupt is needed to interrupt it. If you got stuns, they last what, 3 seconds? All it takes is watching that timer, 2 seconds before, stun. Just need to force them into "forgetting" to cast it when the CD is up.
So, the one tank strat can work for us. We just still don't have a tank geared up to par for it yet...
Anyways, I'll leave you with the Pros and Cons section from TankSpot for each of the strats:
Two Add Tank Strategy:
Pros-
1. Damage Mitigation
The
damage mitigation between the two tanks is split even more so than with
using just one which can take a great deal of stress away from your
healers. If you don't quite have all of the gear in order to tank the
adds or have the full unhittable set it is not as detrimental to their
damage intake as opposed to using just one. By using only one add tank
it is absolutely necessary that the tank has 101.6% avoidance or it
simply will not be possible.
2. The Shadow Strike cast!
This
is probably one of the main problems of the encounter to overcome and a
large weight on the selection of the number of add tanks used. Now by
using two add tanks it allows for the cast time on the adds of shadow
strike to be 2.1 seconds as opposed to a 1.3 second cast when all four
are grouped together. By splitting the distance between the adds and
having each tank pick up two each it makes the cast a lot easier to
interrupt and attack speed time of the adds reduced significantly.
Basically when using two add tanks you want to just assign either a
Rogue, Shaman, or Death Knight to each of the adds to interrupt the
cast. As you will find it makes this specific role of the fight to be
much easier.
Cons-
1. DPS
The
damage on the adds as well as Anub himself will be decreased by a large
amount. The placement of the adds can be very sensitive with all of
them being in range of various classes AoE abilities and their buff
that increases the cast time. Basically what you want to do is get them
close enough for all AoE to hit them without them gaining more than two
stacks of their buff. You will quickly notice that the uptime of dps on
Anub will decrease and a majority of the time will be spent on adds and
AoE.
2. Phase 3 Leeching Swarm
With
having two tanks tanks on adds greatly increases the amount of healing
done back to Anub in phase three, which could also make it quite
difficult to meet the enrage timer if your guild is lacking dps. The
main tank will do roughly three million healing back to Anub and each
of the add tanks will do around two million, most likely a little bit
less depending on the amount of time you spend in phase three. The add
placement and dps is going to have to be almost flawless in order to
reach the enrage timer for this fight if you decide to use two add
tanks.
One Add Tank Strategy:
Pros-
1. DPS
With
using just one add tank it increases the dps of the raid tremendously
due to the fact that you have that extra dps slot in your raid
composition in replacement of the extra tank and the adds are always
going to be in range of all AoE and will get in place quite quickly in
order for dps to start on the adds. As a result of the adds being in
range of all AoE and Anub himself it will clear up for a lot of single
target dps on the boss. The adds will take roughly 15 to 20 seconds to
kill from the time they are all in place and that will give all the dps
time to focus on just Anub for 20 seconds or so until the next wave of
adds spawn.
2. Phase 3 Leech Swarm
As I stated above it will make the time you spend in phase three a lot less thus allowing for a easier enrage timer to meet.
Cons-
1. The Shadow Strike cast!
This
is one of the main reasons that guilds tend to not use this number of
tanks for the encounter because it makes the cast almost next to
impossible to interrupt due to server lag, player latency, as well as
individual reaction time. The only way to successfully go about the
adds with this strategy is to stun and silence them during the shadow
strike cast cooldown and burn them down as fast as physically possible.
Now I will not go into detail on this topic unless people have specific
questions on it, which I will be more than happy to answer.
2. Add pickup
Using
one tank is going to cause the add pickup to be impossible to do
without having Rogues use tricks and Hunters using misdirection on the
tank. What you are going to have to do is have hunters misdirect the
farthest add spawns to the tank and have Rogue(s) tricks the close
spawns to the tank. Now how you set that up is based on the number of
those classes you have available in your guild.
I think our positioning on adds got better and better over the night. I think our DPS will only get better the more we practice. I know for myself, I took until the latter pulls of the night to really get my rotation solid and dot timing or what not correct.
We don't necessarily "need" one tank, but I think as Saedo said, a seperate Anub specific spec would probably be desirable since the rest of the instance is largely 1-2 targets.
I think we discussed this briefly last night, but would like to hear the reasoning one more time...
Why isn't 2 unhittable (or close to it) add tanks stacking adds together on top of 1 permafrost next to anub viable, ASSuming (with a capital ASS) the tanks can stun mobs reliably before SS cast.
I know the higher attack speed is a factor, but if we were even entertaining trying 4 adds on 1 unhittable tank, I'm trying to understand why attack speed would be a greater factor on 2 unhittable tanks. Tanks would take more damage, but adds would conceivably die much faster as well.
Shadow Strike. It was the fear of failing shadow strike. Again I stress the problem is that looking for the cast time is wrong. You merely have to look for the CD timer and make sure it's stunned when the CD hits zero.
This is why DR is so important to consider. It's not just that they'd go immune to stun. It's more that it cuts the stun time down. Imagine your stun lasts 3 seconds, so you timed it to stun them all at 2 seconds. But if someone else was randomly stunning, your stun could wind up as a 1 second stun throwing it all off.
If we're stacking them all, the Holy Wrath stun is probably best (might want to glyph it to reduce CD too).
I was making sure Orky's got stunned with holy wrath last night, (since they were dying after one SS) and Holy Wrath came off CD 10 seconds before (give or take) it was needed for the next set of adds. and of course they died shortly thereafter
even on our pulls when we were getting add sets literally 1 second after each other, shadow strike seemed to happen only once every add set...I'm hard pressed to see DR being a real factor so long as only the tanks are stunning...
We stack them, and if we can heal through the damage, and tanks stun prior to actual cast...we should kill these adds in 20-25 seconds and all at the same time. I don't think those are really big ifs based on the amount of practice we've gotten on the encounter
That's the thing, I'm only talking about the first shadow strike's DR. And only 1 of the tanks should be stunning if they're being stacked together. Don't want stuns overriding or something upping DR.
So, again with looking at a spec specific for Anub. Make sure if you got proc based stuns or abilities that they aren't going off.
IMHO, i have faith that they can do it, possibly aided by a 3 second or 2 second audible warning to blindly stun, especially since the benefit of executing it properly is tremendous.
I'm sure that watching SS timers is part of the learning curve for them as well, and we honestly haven't had a ton of pulls with the same tanks/same set up. If tanks can master timing on tank swapping on Steelbreaker hard mode, i believe in them enough to be able to handle the SS timer (with help) over the long-run.
when it was audibly announce last night that SS was coming off CD in 3-5 seconds (depending on the who said it) the stuns were going off just fine, if theres someone in charge of this it would help get the tanks more comfortable and the timing get better which it did over the evening last night
posting from phone internet. power is out at my house, no idea if it will be back on by raid time. considered trying to hook my laptop up to my phones internet, but i really dont want to raid at 1 fps and constant dcs for the 2 hour battery life on my phone :x
Grasen I won't be here tonight. He's off to see AC/DC (so glad him acting like a school girl at a britney spears concert is almost over) and Mia has an 8pm (6ST) soccer game tonight.
I'm thinking it was grid. Possibly something conflicting w/in the addon. I deleted the .lua and .bak files in the WTF folder both w/in my account saved variables and in general. Things seemed to be much better in EOTS. I afk'd out and decided to do dailies, but I'm planning on doing more stress testing on Sunday after work.
I'm still of the opinion that
Derchlon — Mon, 11/02/2009 - 23:43I'm still of the opinion that one tank can work well for us, if the stun is applied at the correct time by pre-empting it instead of trying to interrupt it.
Hell, two tanks is working fine for us as is. We could have probably 24 manned it tonight if we could have recovered from the second burrow.
Our healers are saying no,
Shihli — Tue, 11/03/2009 - 00:10Our healers are saying no, and understandably so. Here's the numbers.
Those guys were, on average, hitting Orky for about 5k a swing. Let's lowball it and just say it was 3.5k on average. Their attack speed, baseline, is likely that of a normal mob - so about 2 seconds.
So without Spider Frenzy they're hitting Orky for approx. 14k every 2 seconds. That's certainly healable.
But then you factor in that each buff is a 100% attack speed increase.
That brings their attack speed down to 0.5 seconds per swing, which gives them 28k damage per second done to Orky.
Looking at the first pull of the night on parses, this is what it looked like for the last second Orky was alive (warning, lots of text):
[19:09:26.812] Nerubian Burrower hits Orky 2243 (B: 5386)
[19:09:26.937] Katibug Rejuvenation Orky +0 (O: 2843)
[19:09:26.937] Carno Regrowth Orky +0 (O: 1448)
[19:09:27.046] Nerubian Burrower hits Orky Parry
[19:09:27.046] Nerubian Burrower hits Orky 15214
[19:09:27.046] Nerubian Burrower hits Orky Parry
[19:09:27.218] Orky Damage Shield Nerubian Burrower 395
[19:09:27.250] Carno Nourish Orky +*12413*
[19:09:27.265] Nerubian Burrower hits Orky 5113 (B: 2693)
[19:09:27.265] Katibug Lifebloom Orky +595
[19:09:27.406] Aurleas Earthliving Orky +781
[19:09:27.406] Nerubian Burrower hits Orky 579 (B: 5386)
[19:09:27.421] Nerubian Burrower hits Orky Dodge
[19:09:27.421] Nerubian Burrower hits Orky 8064 (O: 7755)
[19:09:27.421] Anub'arak Penetrating Cold Orky 4924
[19:09:27.515] Nerubian Burrower hits Orky 3140 (O: 3707, B: 2693)
[19:09:27.562] Orky Damage Shield Nerubian Burrower 395
[19:09:27.562] Orky Retribution Aura Nerubian Burrower 175
[19:09:27.562] Orky Damage Shield Nerubian Burrower 395
[19:09:27.562] Orky Retribution Aura Nerubian Burrower 175
[19:09:27.562] Orky Damage Shield Nerubian Burrower 402
[19:09:27.562] Orky Retribution Aura Nerubian Burrower 175
[19:09:27.593] Orky Damage Shield Nerubian Burrower 395
[19:09:27.593] Orky Retribution Aura Nerubian Burrower 139
[19:09:27.593] Katibug Lifebloom Orky +3538
[19:09:27.609] Orky Deep Wounds Anub'arak 88
[19:09:27.890] Orky dies
Non-blocked attacks nonwithstanding, Orky was hit eight times in one second.
Orky taking 28k damage (approximately) per second, while only having somewhere in the neighborhood of 40-42k health raidbuffed in his "unhittable" set, means the heals have to be VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY fast. Otherwise, Orky will die in two seconds flat. And we're not even factoring in Shadow Strike into the mix (which, if properly stunned, would not be a factor - but that's another story).
That, and the fact that we've become most accustomed to a two-tank strat (which is most forgiving on our healing situation), tells me that we probably should keep it with three tanks, four healers. If we dropped a tank we'd have to pick up *at least* one more healer, which renders the transition a moot point.
insane damage
Vitriola — Tue, 11/03/2009 - 07:12From [19:09:26.812] to [19:09:27.890] Orky took 34,353. That was a particularly rough one second. This is daunting!
super helpful
Kwondre — Tue, 11/03/2009 - 07:14super helpful
Well it didn't work for us
saedo — Tue, 11/03/2009 - 05:24Well it didn't work for us cause of several reasons tonight.
1. Orky got hit. Not quite unhittable? Or just got behind?
2. Orky being just barely at unhittable means the 2nd priority wasn't looked into. Block Value. That is what's needed to make the hits smaller.
Here's a vid of a One Tank strat, from that tank's PoV, maybe ignore how they kited though.
You'll notice a few things. The blocked hits were never above 3K. I calculate to achieve such a thing if Orky was taking 5K blocks, he's about 600 block value behind that tank.
A 2nd thing to make is how the adds are simply drawn to the permafrost. We def had issues with people not adjusting to permafrost (hiding behind them) which made adds come in at weird angles on some attempts.
A 3rd thing is that they kill the adds in about 20 seconds flat. At our best we were doing it at 30-35 seconds. Besides pushing buttons harder, getting adds to move in faster.... If possible, everyone should probably look into a more aoe oriented spec (within reason that doesn't totally gimp the single target dps).
As for the Shadow Strike, I think people are still under the misconception that a visible cast bar interrupt is needed to interrupt it. If you got stuns, they last what, 3 seconds? All it takes is watching that timer, 2 seconds before, stun. Just need to force them into "forgetting" to cast it when the CD is up.
So, the one tank strat can work for us. We just still don't have a tank geared up to par for it yet...
Anyways, I'll leave you with the Pros and Cons section from TankSpot for each of the strats:
I think our positioning on
Kwondre — Tue, 11/03/2009 - 05:54I think our positioning on adds got better and better over the night. I think our DPS will only get better the more we practice. I know for myself, I took until the latter pulls of the night to really get my rotation solid and dot timing or what not correct.
We don't necessarily "need" one tank, but I think as Saedo said, a seperate Anub specific spec would probably be desirable since the rest of the instance is largely 1-2 targets.
I think we discussed this
Kwondre — Tue, 11/03/2009 - 06:06I think we discussed this briefly last night, but would like to hear the reasoning one more time...
Why isn't 2 unhittable (or close to it) add tanks stacking adds together on top of 1 permafrost next to anub viable, ASSuming (with a capital ASS) the tanks can stun mobs reliably before SS cast.
I know the higher attack speed is a factor, but if we were even entertaining trying 4 adds on 1 unhittable tank, I'm trying to understand why attack speed would be a greater factor on 2 unhittable tanks. Tanks would take more damage, but adds would conceivably die much faster as well.
Shadow Strike. It was the
saedo — Tue, 11/03/2009 - 11:20Shadow Strike. It was the fear of failing shadow strike. Again I stress the problem is that looking for the cast time is wrong. You merely have to look for the CD timer and make sure it's stunned when the CD hits zero.
This is why DR is so important to consider. It's not just that they'd go immune to stun. It's more that it cuts the stun time down. Imagine your stun lasts 3 seconds, so you timed it to stun them all at 2 seconds. But if someone else was randomly stunning, your stun could wind up as a 1 second stun throwing it all off.
If we're stacking them all, the Holy Wrath stun is probably best (might want to glyph it to reduce CD too).
I was making sure Orky's got
Elapsed — Tue, 11/03/2009 - 15:26I was making sure Orky's got stunned with holy wrath last night, (since they were dying after one SS) and Holy Wrath came off CD 10 seconds before (give or take) it was needed for the next set of adds. and of course they died shortly thereafter
even on our pulls when we
Kwondre — Tue, 11/03/2009 - 11:27even on our pulls when we were getting add sets literally 1 second after each other, shadow strike seemed to happen only once every add set...I'm hard pressed to see DR being a real factor so long as only the tanks are stunning...
We stack them, and if we can heal through the damage, and tanks stun prior to actual cast...we should kill these adds in 20-25 seconds and all at the same time. I don't think those are really big ifs based on the amount of practice we've gotten on the encounter
That's the thing, I'm only
saedo — Tue, 11/03/2009 - 11:47That's the thing, I'm only talking about the first shadow strike's DR. And only 1 of the tanks should be stunning if they're being stacked together. Don't want stuns overriding or something upping DR.
So, again with looking at a spec specific for Anub. Make sure if you got proc based stuns or abilities that they aren't going off.
THAT'S IT..WHO THE EFF IS
Kwondre — Tue, 11/03/2009 - 11:50THAT'S IT..WHO THE EFF IS JUDGING JUSTICE???
Seal of justice stuns, not
Ghli — Tue, 11/03/2009 - 12:18Seal of justice stuns, not judging justice.
way to rain on my lame joke
Kwondre — Tue, 11/03/2009 - 12:19way to rain on my lame joke attempt..thx
Take it up with the tanks
Shihli — Tue, 11/03/2009 - 11:38Take it up with the tanks then and ask them what the deal was. Until it "gets fixed" we can't expect to preemptively stun shadow strike.
IMHO, i have faith that they
Kwondre — Tue, 11/03/2009 - 11:47IMHO, i have faith that they can do it, possibly aided by a 3 second or 2 second audible warning to blindly stun, especially since the benefit of executing it properly is tremendous.
I'm sure that watching SS timers is part of the learning curve for them as well, and we honestly haven't had a ton of pulls with the same tanks/same set up. If tanks can master timing on tank swapping on Steelbreaker hard mode, i believe in them enough to be able to handle the SS timer (with help) over the long-run.
when it was audibly announce
Elapsed — Tue, 11/03/2009 - 15:31when it was audibly announce last night that SS was coming off CD in 3-5 seconds (depending on the who said it) the stuns were going off just fine, if theres someone in charge of this it would help get the tanks more comfortable and the timing get better which it did over the evening last night
Parses:
saedo — Mon, 11/02/2009 - 23:08Parses: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-9intx77af3p5c8sx/
sturm
caramun — Mon, 11/02/2009 - 18:24wont be back in town in time for raid tonight
posting from phone internet.
Epatrick — Mon, 11/02/2009 - 17:05posting from phone internet. power is out at my house, no idea if it will be back on by raid time. considered trying to hook my laptop up to my phones internet, but i really dont want to raid at 1 fps and constant dcs for the 2 hour battery life on my phone :x
Grasen I won't be here
Aidin — Mon, 11/02/2009 - 16:29Grasen I won't be here tonight. He's off to see AC/DC (so glad him acting like a school girl at a britney spears concert is almost over) and Mia has an 8pm (6ST) soccer game tonight.
Fairly sure my fps issues may
Katibug — Sat, 10/31/2009 - 10:42Fairly sure my fps issues may have been resolved. I'll be there!
Grats! What finally fixed
saedo — Sat, 10/31/2009 - 11:14Grats! What finally fixed it?
I'm thinking it was grid.
Katibug — Sat, 10/31/2009 - 13:53I'm thinking it was grid. Possibly something conflicting w/in the addon. I deleted the .lua and .bak files in the WTF folder both w/in my account saved variables and in general. Things seemed to be much better in EOTS. I afk'd out and decided to do dailies, but I'm planning on doing more stress testing on Sunday after work.