Gear is one of the reasons. I took the top dps parse of each dps class. That means, they're in their BiS shit for the most part. How much dps would you gain in your T9.258, 272 cloaks, tribute weapons, etc?
Second reason is that I didn't filter out the strat, which I should have, maybe do it later. Some of those uses a 1 add tank strat so easy aoe time for all 4 adds. This is something we might have to look into again. Healers hate it I know but...
Orky's block set has improved
We'd still be going with 6 healers instead of 5. So more healers, more covered than before.
If still an issue keeping him alive, guilds do bring up to 7 healers.
7 healers may sound counter-intuitive for more dps. But, our "increase" in dps comes from...
Higher aoe with every add up close
Positioning is far easier and should occur faster
One less add tank healing Anub for 2M+ of his hp so less dps is required for P3
This was done with a Pally, the worst of the 2 classes that can do it. He was able to get his unhittable block set to make adds only hit him for 1.2K average (though there were 2 11K whoops hits in the entire fight). At our last shots with 1 tank, Orky was being hit for 4.5K average.
So, would Orky be healable if he was taking 4 times less damage? And having insane AoE so adds are never up more than 15 seconds? And bringing more healers? That parse looked like they used 7 healers btw, 2 Bacons, 2 Chain Heals, 2 Discs, and a Tree.
Only other issue is pre-emptively stunning Shadow Strike. And that means moar pressure for you Kwon! ;p
Maybe be we should make this more of a priority. With Nuit, Ace, and Pudo at times tanking the instance. Orky can use some of his "MT set" and regem/reenchant them for the blocking set if applicable. A few pieces shouldn't gimp him as an OT when needed or even MT except maybe a few bosses.
Anyways, should we not go this route, then positioning yes has to be faster. This is part of the reason I've been nudging we needed more rogues for this fight. With Capinbill, had him tricks one tank and me the other so we get both tanks sticky.
Last night was better, a lot of times we had 5 seconds left til next set. Instead of zero. But yes, we need to increase that further. Having positioning faster and perfect would help. People re-prioritizing more aoe thoughts would help.
Take last night, Haleth went from bottom of the pack to top 10 (top 5 a couple times) when we had him think about it. And his later shots reflect the top ret pally dps more, Seal of Command and Concecrate dominating his damage distribution, rather than white melee attacks like earlier shots.
Remember the mantra everyone. AoE your fucking brains out.
(psst Aidin, you have a Thunderstorm button, and a glyph to stop the knockbacks, and it's a minor glyph so it doesn't even take a dps glyph slot)
And FYI the 2 marks not being used by DBM are Star and Nipple.
I like the one tank strat for adds much better. Much easier to place adds, and will free up a dps or healing spot if needed. I think its worth a shot or two or three to revisit it.
I understand gear may be an issue vs those specific numbers...but guilds had to beat him once before getting 258 tier!...and the gap is so wide, I think positioning > gear there.
Also, they way i think about it, it's AOE your brains out so you can get some quality single target time in between adds!
What do you think of the Hunter/Rogue thing splitting sides thing? I'm just trying to figure out a way that tanks can get aggro without having to move towards spawn spots, then move back to the frost...
I don't see how the Hunter/Rogue thing splitting sides is any different from what we've always done.
2 hunters, each take a tank, one on each side. 2 rogues (last night at least), each take a tank, one on each side.
Guess have the tanks stay put.
All they'd have to do is use their range/shield/shattering/taunt on the closest add. MDs handle the farther add. Which is kinda what's been shown in all the vids if anyone has watched any of them...
We also have 4-5 Hand of Freedoms. Use them. Rotate them.
I thought the tank was running out there because there was only one add MD'ed..but I stand corrected...If there's enough "flash threat"...then I think tanks staying put could speed up the killing process!
No that could be what they're doing. I really can't see from my vantage point. But if they're running way out away from the permafrost to pickup adds, it's not what they're supposed to be doing.
Well take a look at Tankspot's vid. At the 4:20ish mark you'll see the Prot Warrior doing that. He's just standing on permafrost, taunting one add while the other is MD'd to him.
Is there a reason why nature resist totem doesn't show up in our "buffs gained" section of parses? I know that totem of wrath doesn't either, so maybe its just a totem thing?
One thing I found out about positioning the adds that is not easy. The permafrost is annoying to get in and out of. Having Hand of Freedom does help some, but if our pallys HoF are all on CD, readjusting the adds takes atleast 2-4 seconds, and you have to make sure the adds are not pounding you on the back as well. One way to fix it is to get some proximity display to see how far you are from the other tank. The problem with that is both Bigwigs and DBM do show proximity to other people, but they don't show the actual distance you are from them (X, Y, & Z are too close to you. get away from them) . For the last 2-3 weeks I have been using a different boss mod named Deus Vox Encounters which does show exact distances. I know that TomTom+TomTomTargetArrow can show an arrow+distance to whatever target you want.
The only problem I see with hunters and rogues trying to MD/tricks adds to the add tanks for us was that we were short on rogues (hopefully fixed with the addition of Capinbill) and hunters can't stack (but can chain) MDs until 3.3. This is the reason it was more safer for the add tanks to actually go pick up one add by themselves if possible and get a MD on the other add, or the adds were able to just walk away due to AoE/healing aggro. It's another reason why the unhittable strat doesn't work for us.
Well, even with 3 hunters and 1 rogue, the side that has two hunters wouldn't be MD'ing the same add...one hunter could mark the add that he will be MD'ing while the other hunter simply MD's the non-marked add..or is that not how MD works?
Telling the distance between you and a target could help, but I think (i don't know, tell me if I'm wrong) if you just keep backing up closer and closer to Anub, you should be able to tell that they're too close by the speed at which they are hitting you. Once that speeds up, then you can pivot (instead of turning around) so that they slightly seperate.
I'm thinking for tanks, they should probably try to push the limit of distance between adds, and then readjust to spread them back out, as opposed to trying to keep them spread, and then readjusting to get them closer.
MD works this way: Hunter casts a buff on the MD target (tank) and for the next 3 attacks that the hunter does in the next 30 seconds, that threat is transfered to the tank, be it a tick of explosive shot, a tick of serpent sting, aimed shot (instant), steady shot (casted), or silencing shot(MM only, instant). As of 3.2, MD is not stackable (unlike tricks, which is stackable).
Could you keep backing up towards anub while tanking the adds? Sure, but if the patch of permafrost doesn't extend that far, or is positioned slightly off, the adds may have a foot out of the permafrost and will submerge. Not to mention, if you backup too far then readjust, you'll have a chance of getting hit in the back with the debuff of 3 or 4 Spider frenzy which will kill a tank. Generally add tanks still want to be alteast 12 yards away from each other. Could each add tank have one of adds on each of them have 3 spider frenzys? I suppose so, but that add has to be taken down asap and/or semi stunned with a HoJ or something that isn't a holy wrath or shockwave.
Did some browsing today, and found some interesting opinions out there on Anub...I don't know how true these are, but they are worth investigating IMO.
A couple of excerpts from people who haved killed 25 Anub HM:
"healing done = (damage + absorbed damage)*(2.3)*(MS effect)*(healing multipler from that player)
Resistance is not healed. MS is essential. And ideally, any characters with the healing multiplier (resto shamans, resto druids, paladins) will have some other way to mitigate it."
also this combat log analysis suggests that while RESISTS help a lot...ABSORBS do not...making PW:shield and DiSac helpful for preventing damage but not necessarily preventing healing.
"Resisted damage does not heal. Felhoof's formula is correct. Here is a clear example from one of our recent attempts (caveat, we have not killed it yet): [23:47:34.156] Anub'arak Leeching Swarm Cafeaulait 7048 (R: 7048) [23:47:34.940] Cafeaulait Leeching Swarm Anub'arak +8105 This is a 50% resist on a feral tank with NR, note the corresponding heal. Using the formula: If resisted damage heals: (7048+7048)*2.3*.5 = 16210 healed If resisted damage does not heal: 7048*2.3*.5 = 8105 healed The log shows the latter number for the heal, so clearly resisted damage does not heal the boss and this is why having resist is so valuable on the tanks, especially the MT. For example, our MT, Cafe, resists about 40% of the Swarm damage resulting in over 4k HPS saved or 4k+ DPS gained.
The second case (damage taken+absorbed) matches the resultant heal, so from 2 lines of combat log data we can with certainty say that absorbed damage heals the boss, but resisted damage does not."
Additionally, I mentioned this in raid, and I would like to experiment with it next time around with ya'lls permission:
It seems to be widely contested as to whether the reduction in spell damage taken due to leeching swarm due to dampen magic affects how much Anub is healed for...however, this could be helpful in letting people sit at low health without significant leeching swarm damage killing them.
Keep in mind that despite the tooltip, dampen magic will not decrease damage from a tick or dot beyond 50% of the base damage, calculated before resists...so if a tick is hitting for 250...it will be reduced to 125 at most, and then calculated for resists. Therefore, shaman healing totems or single druid hots should be enough to keep non-cold debuffed folks alive.
We're getting into P3 with better consistency, but I would like to reiterate the topic of tank positioning. This is in no way a flame on our tanks, because I don't tank nor do I know how technically challenging it is to position these adds with permafrost around.
However, I think there is something we can do to help our tanks get adds in position faster and dead quicker. It seems like the most precious seconds are those between add phases when we have an opportunity to burn Anub single target.
We are not even CLOSE to these numbers. And its not because of gear. Even our most geared top DPS'ers are well behind those metrics.
So a couple of thoughts...please criticize and add to as you see fit:
1) We take (anecdotally) about 10 seconds to encounter adds and position them. I believe this is due to tanks having to come out of frost patches to add spawn points to pick them up, and bring them back (walking backwards) over ice patches.
2) Sometimes, adds are still too far apart. This isn't a huge issue on the second set of adds per phase, because we can kill them as Anub is burrowed...but it is a huge issue on the first sets and in P3 because it takes away single target DPS time.
My suggestions on how to solve these two problems:
1) Create a plan where the tanks don't need to talk out and meet the adds, but can stand in frost (close to where they want to end up eventually) and have the adds come to them.
I believe this can be done with either 3 hunters and 1 rogue or 2 hunters and 2 rogues, and would go something like this:
1 Hunter and One Rogue dedicated to West Side Tank (Hunter given A to 'easymark' his MD target)
1 Hunter and One Rogue dedicated to East Side Tank (Hunter given A to 'easymark' his MD target)
Hunters marks targets and MD add to their respective tanks.
Rogues then tricks tanks and start whacking the unmarked add on their side
In terms of the marks, there are TWO raid target icons not being used by DBM, i think its Skull and Circle or something like that...so we shouldn't have a conflict there with penetrating cold.
I think this would greatly speed up the travel time of the adds from spawn point ~~~> permafrost. Our best add kills are ones in which they die with 8-9 seconds to spare....that's not good enough...those should be our average to below average add phases, at least according to parses.
2) Tanks should probably ingrain it into their heads that its far safer to be too close than too far. Once aggro is established, tanks should continue to try to inch closer to each other until someone in the raid yells out that positioning is good...right now it seems like tanks are stopping at a point where they think they are good. Trust your partners...no one wants anyone to die.
Thoughts? I'll try to make a powerpoint mock up of what i'm talking about when I get a chance.
Parses:
saedo — Mon, 11/23/2009 - 23:19Parses: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-5xo5z3artwser8se/
Chance of not being able to
Ghli — Mon, 11/23/2009 - 16:15Chance of not being able to make it. Dealing with some stuff.
KALUUUUUUUUUU
garreth — Mon, 11/23/2009 - 16:23KALUUUUUUUUUU NOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!
Wifey is sick.. needs to take
primistic — Mon, 11/23/2009 - 08:04Wifey is sick.. needs to take care of her.. If she gets well, then I will be here for raid..
If you guys need me on
Zevix — Fri, 11/20/2009 - 15:51If you guys need me on monday I can be there. I changed my off spec to the aoe spec with aoe glyphs so I will be pumping out more dps on adds.
I've got darts @ 7 on the
Agoney — Fri, 11/20/2009 - 07:11I've got darts @ 7 on the opposite side of town, so I may be a little late depending on how fast the match goes.
To go over several
saedo — Thu, 11/19/2009 - 11:53To go over several points...
Gear is one of the reasons. I took the top dps parse of each dps class. That means, they're in their BiS shit for the most part. How much dps would you gain in your T9.258, 272 cloaks, tribute weapons, etc?
Second reason is that I didn't filter out the strat, which I should have, maybe do it later. Some of those uses a 1 add tank strat so easy aoe time for all 4 adds. This is something we might have to look into again. Healers hate it I know but...
7 healers may sound counter-intuitive for more dps. But, our "increase" in dps comes from...
Take this parse as an example of a one add tank strat: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/5b4f7vxoc8xcelqh/details/2/?s=11178&e...
This was done with a Pally, the worst of the 2 classes that can do it. He was able to get his unhittable block set to make adds only hit him for 1.2K average (though there were 2 11K whoops hits in the entire fight). At our last shots with 1 tank, Orky was being hit for 4.5K average.
So, would Orky be healable if he was taking 4 times less damage? And having insane AoE so adds are never up more than 15 seconds? And bringing more healers? That parse looked like they used 7 healers btw, 2 Bacons, 2 Chain Heals, 2 Discs, and a Tree.
Only other issue is pre-emptively stunning Shadow Strike. And that means moar pressure for you Kwon! ;p
Maybe be we should make this more of a priority. With Nuit, Ace, and Pudo at times tanking the instance. Orky can use some of his "MT set" and regem/reenchant them for the blocking set if applicable. A few pieces shouldn't gimp him as an OT when needed or even MT except maybe a few bosses.
Anyways, should we not go this route, then positioning yes has to be faster. This is part of the reason I've been nudging we needed more rogues for this fight. With Capinbill, had him tricks one tank and me the other so we get both tanks sticky.
Last night was better, a lot of times we had 5 seconds left til next set. Instead of zero. But yes, we need to increase that further. Having positioning faster and perfect would help. People re-prioritizing more aoe thoughts would help.
Take last night, Haleth went from bottom of the pack to top 10 (top 5 a couple times) when we had him think about it. And his later shots reflect the top ret pally dps more, Seal of Command and Concecrate dominating his damage distribution, rather than white melee attacks like earlier shots.
Remember the mantra everyone. AoE your fucking brains out.
(psst Aidin, you have a Thunderstorm button, and a glyph to stop the knockbacks, and it's a minor glyph so it doesn't even take a dps glyph slot)
And FYI the 2 marks not being used by DBM are Star and Nipple.
I like the one tank strat for
Agoney — Thu, 11/19/2009 - 13:53I like the one tank strat for adds much better. Much easier to place adds, and will free up a dps or healing spot if needed. I think its worth a shot or two or three to revisit it.
I understand gear may be an
Kwondre — Thu, 11/19/2009 - 12:04I understand gear may be an issue vs those specific numbers...but guilds had to beat him once before getting 258 tier!...and the gap is so wide, I think positioning > gear there.
Also, they way i think about it, it's AOE your brains out so you can get some quality single target time in between adds!
What do you think of the Hunter/Rogue thing splitting sides thing? I'm just trying to figure out a way that tanks can get aggro without having to move towards spawn spots, then move back to the frost...
I don't see how the
saedo — Thu, 11/19/2009 - 12:27I don't see how the Hunter/Rogue thing splitting sides is any different from what we've always done.
2 hunters, each take a tank, one on each side. 2 rogues (last night at least), each take a tank, one on each side.
Guess have the tanks stay put.
All they'd have to do is use their range/shield/shattering/taunt on the closest add. MDs handle the farther add. Which is kinda what's been shown in all the vids if anyone has watched any of them...
We also have 4-5 Hand of Freedoms. Use them. Rotate them.
ok that's cool i wasn't
Kwondre — Thu, 11/19/2009 - 12:31ok that's cool i wasn't aware...
I thought the tank was running out there because there was only one add MD'ed..but I stand corrected...If there's enough "flash threat"...then I think tanks staying put could speed up the killing process!
No that could be what they're
saedo — Thu, 11/19/2009 - 12:42No that could be what they're doing. I really can't see from my vantage point. But if they're running way out away from the permafrost to pickup adds, it's not what they're supposed to be doing.
Well take a look at Tankspot's vid. At the 4:20ish mark you'll see the Prot Warrior doing that. He's just standing on permafrost, taunting one add while the other is MD'd to him.
this is the exact video i
Kwondre — Thu, 11/19/2009 - 13:02this is the exact video i wanted to link, but can't because I'm at work...this could have the potential to shave 5+ seconds on our add-killing time.
The tanks have been running
garreth — Thu, 11/19/2009 - 12:43The tanks have been running out. We need them to stay put. Let's work on getting them glued in place.
Thank GOD. I've been
Derchlon — Fri, 11/20/2009 - 00:58Thank GOD. I've been advocating this for a few weeks now.
Nature Resist
Kwondre — Thu, 11/19/2009 - 10:35Is there a reason why nature resist totem doesn't show up in our "buffs gained" section of parses? I know that totem of wrath doesn't either, so maybe its just a totem thing?
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-5pd4agjdhv742heb/details/22/
Dont see any totems :P But it
Desteran — Thu, 11/19/2009 - 12:23Dont see any totems :P But it was down.
One thing I found out about
Ghli — Thu, 11/19/2009 - 10:00One thing I found out about positioning the adds that is not easy. The permafrost is annoying to get in and out of. Having Hand of Freedom does help some, but if our pallys HoF are all on CD, readjusting the adds takes atleast 2-4 seconds, and you have to make sure the adds are not pounding you on the back as well. One way to fix it is to get some proximity display to see how far you are from the other tank. The problem with that is both Bigwigs and DBM do show proximity to other people, but they don't show the actual distance you are from them (X, Y, & Z are too close to you. get away from them) . For the last 2-3 weeks I have been using a different boss mod named Deus Vox Encounters which does show exact distances. I know that TomTom+TomTomTargetArrow can show an arrow+distance to whatever target you want.
The only problem I see with hunters and rogues trying to MD/tricks adds to the add tanks for us was that we were short on rogues (hopefully fixed with the addition of Capinbill) and hunters can't stack (but can chain) MDs until 3.3. This is the reason it was more safer for the add tanks to actually go pick up one add by themselves if possible and get a MD on the other add, or the adds were able to just walk away due to AoE/healing aggro. It's another reason why the unhittable strat doesn't work for us.
Well, even with 3 hunters and
Kwondre — Thu, 11/19/2009 - 10:08Well, even with 3 hunters and 1 rogue, the side that has two hunters wouldn't be MD'ing the same add...one hunter could mark the add that he will be MD'ing while the other hunter simply MD's the non-marked add..or is that not how MD works?
Telling the distance between you and a target could help, but I think (i don't know, tell me if I'm wrong) if you just keep backing up closer and closer to Anub, you should be able to tell that they're too close by the speed at which they are hitting you. Once that speeds up, then you can pivot (instead of turning around) so that they slightly seperate.
I'm thinking for tanks, they should probably try to push the limit of distance between adds, and then readjust to spread them back out, as opposed to trying to keep them spread, and then readjusting to get them closer.
MD works this way:Hunter
Ghli — Thu, 11/19/2009 - 10:59MD works this way:
Hunter casts a buff on the MD target (tank) and for the next 3 attacks that the hunter does in the next 30 seconds, that threat is transfered to the tank, be it a tick of explosive shot, a tick of serpent sting, aimed shot (instant), steady shot (casted), or silencing shot(MM only, instant). As of 3.2, MD is not stackable (unlike tricks, which is stackable).
Could you keep backing up towards anub while tanking the adds? Sure, but if the patch of permafrost doesn't extend that far, or is positioned slightly off, the adds may have a foot out of the permafrost and will submerge. Not to mention, if you backup too far then readjust, you'll have a chance of getting hit in the back with the debuff of 3 or 4 Spider frenzy which will kill a tank. Generally add tanks still want to be alteast 12 yards away from each other. Could each add tank have one of adds on each of them have 3 spider frenzys? I suppose so, but that add has to be taken down asap and/or semi stunned with a HoJ or something that isn't a holy wrath or shockwave.
Other Tricks
Kwondre — Thu, 11/19/2009 - 09:20Did some browsing today, and found some interesting opinions out there on Anub...I don't know how true these are, but they are worth investigating IMO.
Check out this StratFu Forum discussion on Anub: http://www.stratfu.com/forums/showthread.php?t=663&page=3
A couple of excerpts from people who haved killed 25 Anub HM:
"healing done = (damage + absorbed damage)*(2.3)*(MS effect)*(healing multipler from that player)
Resistance is not healed. MS is essential. And ideally, any characters with the healing multiplier (resto shamans, resto druids, paladins) will have some other way to mitigate it."
also this combat log analysis suggests that while RESISTS help a lot...ABSORBS do not...making PW:shield and DiSac helpful for preventing damage but not necessarily preventing healing.
"Resisted damage does not heal.
Felhoof's formula is correct.
Here is a clear example from one of our recent attempts (caveat, we have not killed it yet):
[23:47:34.156] Anub'arak Leeching Swarm Cafeaulait 7048 (R: 7048)
[23:47:34.940] Cafeaulait Leeching Swarm Anub'arak +8105
This is a 50% resist on a feral tank with NR, note the corresponding heal.
Using the formula:
If resisted damage heals:
(7048+7048)*2.3*.5 = 16210 healed
If resisted damage does not heal:
7048*2.3*.5 = 8105 healed
The log shows the latter number for the heal, so clearly resisted damage does not heal the boss and this is why having resist is so valuable on the tanks, especially the MT. For example, our MT, Cafe, resists about 40% of the Swarm damage resulting in over 4k HPS saved or 4k+ DPS gained.
Edit:
Here is a second, better example:
[23:47:34.156] Anub'arak Leeching Swarm Kasheen 4945 (A: 1236, R: 1545)
[23:47:34.938] Kasheen Leeching Swarm Anub'arak +7108
Damage only:
4945*2.3*.5 = 5687 healed
Damage+absorb:
(4945+1236)*2.3*.5 = 7108
Damage+resist:
(4945+1545)*2.3*.5 = 7464
Damage+absorb+resist:
(4945+1236+1545)*2.3*.5 = 8885
The second case (damage taken+absorbed) matches the resultant heal, so from 2 lines of combat log data we can with certainty say that absorbed damage heals the boss, but resisted damage does not."
Additionally, I mentioned this in raid, and I would like to experiment with it next time around with ya'lls permission:
Dampen Magic: http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=43015
It seems to be widely contested as to whether the reduction in spell damage taken due to leeching swarm due to dampen magic affects how much Anub is healed for...however, this could be helpful in letting people sit at low health without significant leeching swarm damage killing them.
Keep in mind that despite the tooltip, dampen magic will not decrease damage from a tick or dot beyond 50% of the base damage, calculated before resists...so if a tick is hitting for 250...it will be reduced to 125 at most, and then calculated for resists. Therefore, shaman healing totems or single druid hots should be enough to keep non-cold debuffed folks alive.
In conclusion, it seems that:
Location, Location, Location....
Kwondre — Thu, 11/19/2009 - 08:02We're getting into P3 with better consistency, but I would like to reiterate the topic of tank positioning. This is in no way a flame on our tanks, because I don't tank nor do I know how technically challenging it is to position these adds with permafrost around.
However, I think there is something we can do to help our tanks get adds in position faster and dead quicker. It seems like the most precious seconds are those between add phases when we have an opportunity to burn Anub single target.
See the DPS numbers here: /raidevent/kitten-brigade/2009/11/18#comment-47824
We are not even CLOSE to these numbers. And its not because of gear. Even our most geared top DPS'ers are well behind those metrics.
So a couple of thoughts...please criticize and add to as you see fit:
1) We take (anecdotally) about 10 seconds to encounter adds and position them. I believe this is due to tanks having to come out of frost patches to add spawn points to pick them up, and bring them back (walking backwards) over ice patches.
2) Sometimes, adds are still too far apart. This isn't a huge issue on the second set of adds per phase, because we can kill them as Anub is burrowed...but it is a huge issue on the first sets and in P3 because it takes away single target DPS time.
My suggestions on how to solve these two problems:
1) Create a plan where the tanks don't need to talk out and meet the adds, but can stand in frost (close to where they want to end up eventually) and have the adds come to them.
I believe this can be done with either 3 hunters and 1 rogue or 2 hunters and 2 rogues, and would go something like this:
I think this would greatly speed up the travel time of the adds from spawn point ~~~> permafrost. Our best add kills are ones in which they die with 8-9 seconds to spare....that's not good enough...those should be our average to below average add phases, at least according to parses.
2) Tanks should probably ingrain it into their heads that its far safer to be too close than too far. Once aggro is established, tanks should continue to try to inch closer to each other until someone in the raid yells out that positioning is good...right now it seems like tanks are stopping at a point where they think they are good. Trust your partners...no one wants anyone to die.
Thoughts? I'll try to make a powerpoint mock up of what i'm talking about when I get a chance.
Use Gliffy (www.gliffy.com)
garreth — Thu, 11/19/2009 - 11:48Use Gliffy (www.gliffy.com)