This allowed Plumsauce to fire it up. Still probably needs more practice to perfect it, but still good enough for the 2nd dps.
Next time, we're probably gonna go with Plumsauce staying down after first burnout like I initially planned. At least to the meteor to help Kaka's bird down. After that, back up in the air.
Whatever it takes to stablize our execution in the 2nd ground phase.
Also of note, a grand total of 3 fieroblasts went off. Down from our usual 30ish in this time frame. Though, do expect that to go up next time due to less interrupts with Feld.
Although, since Elasped was having so much fun interrupting and HoJ'ing. Maybe we should do some side swapping since I can interrupt the most.
Since I don't want to swap the tanks and take them out of their groove. And now we've found our healers partnered up with the tank they'd heal. That leaves the DPS teams.
Maybe Me-Kaluu left (square-triangle), Feld-Knoppix-Elapsed right (X-diamond). Spread out the interrupts more. Unless you guys wanna just leave it be?
Anyways, good job tonight guys, and gal. Tomorrow (later tonight) we shall.... to be determined.
After going over the Bossprint maps, I may have narrowed some of our problems.
The blue marker might be 'placed in the wrong location' giving the apperance to everyone that there's 'too much space' on the west side where I put blue and green.
Same thing probablly can be said about red and purple, as they were being placed closer to each other.
Flip healers around? It might play to our strengths.
The markers in general are just approximations still, but I agree the "west" side has always felt bigger, but in reality it really isn't. It just kind of feels that way in-game because the boss spawn and the room entrance aren't exactly across from each other. So it gives that feel if it being 'off'.
I'm not sorry for the reasoning behind my blow up the other night, The fact we can do so well and then suddenly fail because someone (up to 4 of us aparently) can "fall asleep at the keyboard"
As Sadeo put, We were so damned promising early on. But can someone tell me why the tornados are so hard to grasp?!?! For those of you whom haven't looked at an image
Really what we have here is some spiraling in and the inner circle perfectly round. No one should be in the inner circle at all! however it is not hard to see how with 2 feathers+ (and you can all have 2 feathers by the time we hit this pahse!) you can follow a Tornado around the spiral and live!
Now lets talk about worms shall we? what I've made over at boosblueprints is no new mindblowing strat! It's an image representation of what we agreed upon so very very long ago would be the worm phases
Now what you see here are all approximate locations of our marks, what they are and their location in the room. The numbers are a quick overview of where the worms spawn (once again approx) phase 1 is the first set of 4 worms, where phase 2 is the second set of worms (I know very technical right?)
Now to help the way we send dps out on the ground for interupts (which we can't always get) and to help patch up some bushfire damage (which we shouldn't be taking but sometimes shit happens) This is the manner we agreed to handle the first round of worms. The 1s should be the first worms our tanks should be feeding the worms to their adds. First worms should be eaten are Green/pureple by Kaka, and Blue/Red by Mehguy. This is to help with proximity to the raid who is interupting for the second worms.
Worm 2 Should be eaten on the appropiate sides of Blue/Green by Kaka, and Red/yello by Mehguy. This is due to the fact that the druid interupters will be moving back and forth about now to get interupts and may need a quick cleanse or heal to avoid getting gibbed!
This is the second and other spawn of the worms (once again as with all of my images, so very very approx) and the order in which they should be eaten, This spawn is less important as to the order of 1/2 but more stands to ensure that we stay on our sides!! of Blue/Green for Kaka, and Red/Yellow for Mehguy. This is the spawn that was making me rage the most the other night as Kaka kept going over to the yallow/purple number 2 worm for his 2nd. and at that point taking me away from my interupt team, invariably during this moment one of them would stand in a brushfire and then get hit by a Fiero. Can I save them if this happens and I'm in range? Maybe and most likely! but I wont know unless I'm in a reasonable range!
In short, this isn't a hard fight, Hell who died more in normal mode tornadoes than me? IT WAS BECAUSE I DIDN'T UNDERSTAND! Now if I die to a tornado? it's intentional when wiping, or we have a worm alive when we shouldn't and I'm trying to stay in one area to heal the tank.
To elaborate on the worm pics a little, Im going to edit them slightly to help clarify to some other people exactly what Elapsed and I were seeing.
The marking are almost spot on, very good for approximations. Reminder we get 2 worms PER BIRD and 3 birds EACH. SO 3 sets in total.
Blue Fire mark is the boss spawn area, and star is the middle/general area where the meteor spawns.
This is how Sets 1 and 3 are supposed to be
This allows Kaka and I to take the 1st worm(s) that are furthest away from our "sides", BUT it puts us closest to the first caster that spawns so in essence, our group is closer together THUS easier to heal. BUT....
This is how they WERE being done (until we changed it at the end).
The issue that Elapsed was having on Kakas side was that he was NOT taking the proper worm to start. The caster on his side will spawn near triangle first, so it makes more sense to take the Triangle/Diamond worm first because his group should already near triangle dpsing that caster. Where as the way he was doing it, by the time he had to grab his 2nd worm (diamond/triangle) the dps was up by square killing that add and they were too far apart that it was stretch Elapsed thin and he was having the issues healing. So changing it to the way we did allows Kaka to be nearer to his group at the end of each "set" so Elapsed can heal easier.
The 2nd set SHOULD go like this
This again, allows the tank to be nearer to his group throughout the entire 2nd set to allow easier healing.
BUT sometimes this happened...
I would be starting to go towards my 2nd worm, then realize Kaka had bolted accros the room to "my" worm and I would have to make an immediate turn to get to the last remaining worm. While this did not happen every time, it did occur a few times and this is what Elapsed referred to when he was saying Kaka was going to the complete other side of the room. Which gave Elapsed (and Cromi) some ranging issues and people started getting low/dying.
Not everyone is perfect, I know I took the wrong worm as well once in a while. But these were the main issues with the worms and ranging people.
SO... if we are able to keep to the CORRECT gameplan, we SHOULD succeed as long as people dont die to STUPID SHIT!
Hope this was able to help clear up issues or confusion people may have been having. Elapsed, hope this helped a little, didn't mean to step on your toes. Let me know if you were seeing anything really differently than I was.
The Fiery Tornadoes are pretty slow nowadays. You don't even have to follow tornadoes. What you can do is just stand there. Wait for a tornado to pass, walk up to the ring where it was, wait for a tornado to pass where you were standing, walk back there. Don't have to run around all over the place. That's what I kinda do, though techinically I run around more looking for rings to pump my dps. But if I play it safe, it's what I'd do. Step in, step out. Doesey do and turn your self around.
Also for the worm pics, you know what would help a bit. If you put in the pictures where you are (and maybe Cromi). Maybe an area where you'd like to keep yourself to.
this video isnt exactly the "crispist", but it clearly shows the guy just following one, then when one passes, he follows that one and just makes a circle. I do the exact same thing except on the far outer right next to the "bad zone". Which you can see clearly on the vid as well, and notice how the tornadoes next to the "bad zone" are all going CLOCKWISE! If everyone can start out on the far outer ring as they can, they will only have to worry about running clockwise to start AND if they do get hit by a tornado spawn, they should only be getting hit by one (not 3!!!) because they will have spread out enough by then so you shouldnt get hit by the last "ring" of them that is IN the "bad zone" going counter-clockwise.
Yea that's pretty much what I try to do pre-nerf. Post-nerf these tornadoes move slower than that so my circle isn't even that wide (unless I gun for rings). But basically back and forth between the 2 paths of tornadoes.
All right everyone, take deep breaths, think happy thoughts. I know last raid went a bit rough. Had a promising start, showed a few glimpses, then frustration set in.
I'm sorry, maybe I've been a little too stubborn on our strat. I've been fearing the state of our dps, but perhaps, after some more research, with a bit of adjustment, we can still do this.
I'm not entirely sure we will do this on Sunday, but here's the outline of a proposal of changes I want to make to our strat.
1. Two, yes two DPS!
All right, I want Plumsauce as FIRE. Foresight and Plum will fly. And fly they will doing their pyroblast tricks, and combustion during burnout tricks, BURN BABY BURN!
However, there has been some agreement that the 2nd ground phase (after burnout) does "seem" to go a little faster. So, I would like Plumsauce to forever stay down from then on (after 1st burnout) to help keep things under control.
Summary: Plumsauce FIRE, Plumsauce + Foresight fly up til 1st Burnout, Foresight only 2nd Burnout, kill before we all die
2. Fieroblasts, can we reduce them?
Checking certain other raids, they take about 1/3rd the fieroblast casts/damage. How is this possible? We need balls out more focused dps on them. The birds, will have to be lower priority (more on this next section).
With 2 up, that means 4 dps down, 2 dps on both sides. Unless it's a Meteor to kill, it should be focus balls to the wall on the caster adds. Get them all down ASAP.
A 2nd adjustment we might have to think about in regarding this.... Getting a 2nd 10 second interrupt for the other side. And the only way I can think of us getting that is, Mehguy dps'ing, and Kaluu tanking. I know. This is probably a hated venture forcing Kaluu to switch out for one boss.
It's an idea to keep in mind. If we can reduce the casts, reduce the cleansing, get it down to a 1/3rd of what we were receiving, happy healers. We can hope focused dps will work, or else we have to think about more interrupts/stuns....
Summary: DPS must focus on caster adds, kill ASAP (interrupt/stun too) unless meteor.
3. Tank DPS has to increase
Remember way back when we were learning normal Alysrazor, and I kinda made some comments on how we need the tank dps to increase as the vast majority of the dps on the birds will be up to them? I'm going to have to do that again.
Tanks need more of a dps rotation, not a threat tank rotation. Mehguy, Heroic Strike more. Both you may consider putting a bit of dps gear on (within reason).
I've looked over other raids, and yea, they can do 10-20K more dps, and provide about 95% of the damage to birds. You two have been hovering around 90%. And since in the above section I want the dps to more focus on caster mobs, it's gonna be almost entirely the tank's responsibility to take down their own bird.
It's just the way it's going to have to be.
Summary: Moar tank deeps.
4.Feathers
All right, we're going to prioritize these. There should be 10 feathers dropping. Here's what I want to see.
Foresight - 3
Plumsauce - 3
Elasped - 1
Cromaniac - 1
Mehguy - 1
Kaka - 1
Yes, just them, even I will forgo getting them. Obviously the 2 sent up will get theirs, give the healers theirs, and then the tanks can have em too, for easier moving around with their birds.
Then rest of us dps will have to tough it out being slower, but make your way to grabbing feathers in the middle when the opportunity arises. I've seen that after the first Firestorm there's always a pile of feathers to be picked up. Easily reached before getting right back on adds.
Summary: Feathers for flyers, tankers, and healers, oh my.
I hope this can organize the chaos a bit better. With this everyone's a bit more compartmentalized in their roles here. Mages, burn boss. Rest of dps, burn casters. Tanks, burn birds. Healers, save us all!
I've always felt that two DPS up at the start was the way to go. I also agree that tanks should always get a feather too, since we do need to move around a lot, and our survival means your survival. Regarding tank DPS, recall that toward the end when we put two people up at first, I did swap out to my hit trinket for added DPS. I will follow Mehguy's suggestion and reforge my gear too. I'll reforge the hit back to my hit trinket to maximize my hit, as it'll still be WELL below cap afterwards, then add some hit and expertise here and there too, as my expertise is also rather low. The only other thing I can suggest is perhaps having Elapsed get any interrupts on a druid that might otherwise get missed? I know it's asking a lot, but at least he doesn't have to shape shift and perhaps enrage (2 GCDs), which is what Cromi would have to do to Skull Bash. Better yet, stick with the plan, and DPS those fuckers down before they ever get Fieroblast off. I presume that was nerfed in heroic too? i.e. two brushfire casts before the first fiero?
The only change I would make would be to consider letting Plumsauce go back up on second phase. If people start to die off, that's two people already up. I have a feeling Alysra will be at about 25% or less after the first down phase, and we won't really see more than one complete bird phase (2 meteors) before she's dead. We can then switch to the "anyone who can get 3 feathers and get up and DPS" strat at that point and kill her. I've seen, uhh, another guild, do that before.
My last comment is to continue re-iterating that you can still DPS Alysrazor while she's up in the air. She has a HUGE hit box. So, once birds are dead, DPS Alysrazor. During tornadoes, DPS Alysrazor. At the start when she emerges and flies across the room, DPS Alysrazor. After she goes back up and before the worms are up, DPS Alysrazor.
We dont really have the greatest group comp for a 10-man, and it definitely feels (IN MY OPINION) that we still have some people (myself included) that need to work on different aspects of their class to do the very best they can. It gets very frustrating to me to see other groups or guilds have people with the same (or very near same) classes/specs as some of us doing heroics, and to look at parses or watch vids on youtube and see they are doing 5-10k+ more average DPS than our guys. It is very irritating especially for me because as far as I can tell, I'm doing everything that they are doing for TG Fury, and Im still behind them, so I'm constantly trying to find that "sweet spot" to get myself to where I should be. One week I respecced all my extra hit into mastery because I found a random thread that explained that it was a better option (mastery is normally considered to be our 2nd worst stat). So I tried it and I was able to get 4k dps better average on dummies. BUT when I brought it into a raid environment when I had to deal with moving mobs and multiple mobs, it just wasnt working out as well, so I had to reforge everything again to get back to where I was. Its all about trial and error and Its been brought up that people should take the time to really research their classes and specs, and it needs to be mentioned again... so... research your class people.
Now I know youre trying to help and put out suggestions, but I am quite frankly tired of hearing the "my guild" and "this other guild I know/heard about" comments. To me it feels very demeaning and makes me feel that you consider yourself better than us. I know youre not trying make it come off that way and youre just trying to be helpful with suggestions, but it really wants to make me ignore you and mute your vent. Maybe try "Lets consider this because I know from experience that it works", definitely sounds less dick-headed-ish (to me at least).
NOW back to the main topic, Im sure our group comps are different between your group and ours, and thats something you really have to consider when you bring it up because those ideas wont necessarily work for us... yet. Youve mentioned for us to DPS alysrazor while were running for tornadoes, while that is a good time for some "free" damage on her, we STILL have people dying to fucking tornadoes. And people obviously arent focusing enough on just LIVING so to have them focus on dpsing when living is more important, isnt advisable. Sending up 2 people at the start is good, but at first it was not because we were having add issues, and we still kind of do. BUT it has gotten more managable over time. I dont feel that sending up 2 dps at the start of the 2nd cycle (after burnout) is advisable yet. During that 2nd cycle is when we are really having add issues, so while yea it will help bring alys down, the people on the ground will likely die (as we have been) because we fall behind on adds. I dont feel (personally) that it is worth the risk. Because if they dont kill him in the air after burnout, the people on the ground will most likely will be dead from having to play catch up with adds, so when those 2 come down during firestorm or tornado the birds or casters will just finish them off and it will be a wipe regardless. I would rather do the slightly longer and safer method until we get certain aspects worked out. Im a little more open to having a 2nd dps go up during the 2nd cycle AFTER the first meteor/firestorm session, because we may have gotten caught up with adds with that extra dps help.
As for your gear, you will have to find some DK specific tactics, but from some of what Ive read, DKs are in general considered the worst tank for the birds. I was able to find a few war specific threads on the fight and some aspects may work for you. They recommend getting hit/exp cap for 87 mobs and its recommended to use 2pc T11 and 2pc t12, so luckily I still had some various pieces saved and extra 378 pieces from valor or drops that I was able to change out and reforge/gem to make it work, and I still had to spend over 2k in mats/enchants/gemming/reforging and re-reforging pieces to make it work where I still have a viable solid normal tank set AND a set that works for Alys w/o severely gimping myself. You will likely have to do the same and see if there are any DK specific threads on H alys 10-man. I know Ill be taking some more hits because my avoidance was gimped slightly, as will yours, but as long as our worm priority and kiting is on point, the healing SHOULDNT be an issue. And the issue is not that Elapsed and Cromi CANT keep us up along with the DPS, the issue is that there are range issues occuring to where one or both of them have to make the decision to play catch up on healing on either the dps or us because of how far apart we are spread.
I think Saedo's idea for the feathers are good for priority, and as much as I enjoy having one feather, honestly I can live without one. it does make kiting them easier, but usually after I get my first worm, i dont move around too much other than to get back closer to my side for easier healing for cromi. I try to stay in one place as much as possible and wail on the bird because its hit box is stupid small and buggy so thats less dmg. So when it comes time for tantrum I just heroic leap right to the worm, no kiting or backpeddling required. So if someone else feels they NEED to get a feather at the start of each cycle, go ahead, I can grab one after the first or 2nd firestorm.
Like I said. I always feared how our dps looked on the ground. Now, if you tanks can up your own dps and practically solo kill the birds yourself, that would go a long way in relieving that fear of mine's.
Fieroblast will go off. At least on the side I'm not on since we lack that 10 sec interrupt. It was nerfed, but not to the point of what normal mode is. Normal mode I think we see 3 brushfires then a fieroblast, takes like 20 seconds and their HP are low enough that we kill them with only 1 or 0 casts to interrupt.
In heroic, the pattern I've noticed is that it's 2 brushfires then a fieroblast. We get about 8 seconds between each blast. A 10 second interrupt would go a long way in locking it down completely. And their HPs are significantly higher so we can't burn down fast. My side at least typically gets to 4 maybe 5 fieroblasts before it dies. But, from parses of a certain other raid, I see them capable of locking down (as much as possible) with a hunter/mage combo too. And a feral druid on the other side. So much like how our raid operates.
The only difference would probably be that we force our dps way too much time on the birds, when instead they should be 100% focused on burning/interrupting casters. Only when they're down we'd help chip the birds down a bit. So it goes back to, tank dps needs to increase.
As for the 2nd ground phase, I suppose we can try keeping Plumsauce up and flying. Again, just don't make me scared by having adds overrun us. ;p
As for DPS'ing Alysrazor. I still say play it safe. Especially during Fiery Tornadoes. I don't care if the tanks fail at dps and the birds are still up. Live. Just live. A few extra hits isn't worth it if you die. Live. I repeat. Live.
I can corroborate that its 2 brushfire then a fiero. But one thing I HAVE noticed, is that sometimes when a new add spawns and I charge it to get some build up rage, itll stun them for a sec or 2 and then they sometimes they go RIGHT to a fieroblast instead of following their "normal" rotation. So I will have to avoid using that tactic as it may be detrimental. ALSO, I will endeavor to macro my spell reflect to one of my buttons. I started using it during some of the last attempts and noticed that while it didnt necessarily help bring the adds down faster because of how randomly they may cast on me, it did prevent extra healing when I was able to use it and they DID cast at me. So that may help a little too.
Ive been doing some reading on tank dmg today, particularly for 10-man Heroic. Im thinking that with what I have for my set right now, along with my DPS set/trinkets, I MIGHT be able to get much higher dps... around 95/100k after messing around with reforging stats and changing some enchants. Itll take some of my survivability down, but I think the returns will be well worth it. Also tinkering with a dmg rotation as compared to my normal rotation... have some macro's to change.
Did some tweaking tonight with everything, and followed some advice/threads on the subject. Based off testing on dummies it shows to be pretty promising... but again, those are on dummies. Wont really know how it will work out for sure until we get into the fight. I think it should hold up ok since Ill be getting hit and getting rage... kinda sucks testing tank stuff on dummies.
I didnt really have to gimp myself too much on avoidance thankfully. My dodge is a bit lower, but parry overall isnt that much lower.. and oddly enough my mastery/block went up. Weird. Still have to tinker with macro's as they arent quite set yet. Should be g2g on Sunday when we kill that bitch.
And it finally is
saedo — Mon, 10/24/2011 - 01:17And it finally is done.
Thanks Razi for filling in!
Mehguy and Kaka got their tank dps up.
This allowed Plumsauce to fire it up. Still probably needs more practice to perfect it, but still good enough for the 2nd dps.
Next time, we're probably gonna go with Plumsauce staying down after first burnout like I initially planned. At least to the meteor to help Kaka's bird down. After that, back up in the air.
Whatever it takes to stablize our execution in the 2nd ground phase.
Also of note, a grand total of 3 fieroblasts went off. Down from our usual 30ish in this time frame. Though, do expect that to go up next time due to less interrupts with Feld.
Although, since Elasped was having so much fun interrupting and HoJ'ing. Maybe we should do some side swapping since I can interrupt the most.
Since I don't want to swap the tanks and take them out of their groove. And now we've found our healers partnered up with the tank they'd heal. That leaves the DPS teams.
Maybe Me-Kaluu left (square-triangle), Feld-Knoppix-Elapsed right (X-diamond). Spread out the interrupts more. Unless you guys wanna just leave it be?
Anyways, good job tonight guys, and gal. Tomorrow (later tonight) we shall.... to be determined.
Parses:
saedo — Sun, 10/23/2011 - 22:22Parses: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-0ydtjb09etk66ibu/
Sunday bump! Any more
saedo — Sun, 10/23/2011 - 09:50Sunday bump!
Any more input? Kaluu? Plumsauce? Feldield? Cromi?
After going over the
Ghli — Sun, 10/23/2011 - 10:21After going over the Bossprint maps, I may have narrowed some of our problems.
The blue marker might be 'placed in the wrong location' giving the apperance to everyone that there's 'too much space' on the west side where I put blue and green.
Same thing probablly can be said about red and purple, as they were being placed closer to each other.
Flip healers around? It might play to our strengths.
The markers in general are
Mehguy — Sun, 10/23/2011 - 11:46The markers in general are just approximations still, but I agree the "west" side has always felt bigger, but in reality it really isn't. It just kind of feels that way in-game because the boss spawn and the room entrance aren't exactly across from each other. So it gives that feel if it being 'off'.
Lets Talk About Worms, Shall we?
Elapsed — Fri, 10/21/2011 - 09:16I'm not sorry for the reasoning behind my blow up the other night, The fact we can do so well and then suddenly fail because someone (up to 4 of us aparently) can "fall asleep at the keyboard"
As Sadeo put, We were so damned promising early on. But can someone tell me why the tornados are so hard to grasp?!?! For those of you whom haven't looked at an image
Really what we have here is some spiraling in and the inner circle perfectly round. No one should be in the inner circle at all! however it is not hard to see how with 2 feathers+ (and you can all have 2 feathers by the time we hit this pahse!) you can follow a Tornado around the spiral and live!
Now lets talk about worms shall we? what I've made over at boosblueprints is no new mindblowing strat! It's an image representation of what we agreed upon so very very long ago would be the worm phases
Now what you see here are all approximate locations of our marks, what they are and their location in the room. The numbers are a quick overview of where the worms spawn (once again approx) phase 1 is the first set of 4 worms, where phase 2 is the second set of worms (I know very technical right?)
Now to help the way we send dps out on the ground for interupts (which we can't always get) and to help patch up some bushfire damage (which we shouldn't be taking but sometimes shit happens) This is the manner we agreed to handle the first round of worms. The 1s should be the first worms our tanks should be feeding the worms to their adds. First worms should be eaten are Green/pureple by Kaka, and Blue/Red by Mehguy. This is to help with proximity to the raid who is interupting for the second worms.
Worm 2 Should be eaten on the appropiate sides of Blue/Green by Kaka, and Red/yello by Mehguy. This is due to the fact that the druid interupters will be moving back and forth about now to get interupts and may need a quick cleanse or heal to avoid getting gibbed!
This is the second and other spawn of the worms (once again as with all of my images, so very very approx) and the order in which they should be eaten, This spawn is less important as to the order of 1/2 but more stands to ensure that we stay on our sides!! of Blue/Green for Kaka, and Red/Yellow for Mehguy. This is the spawn that was making me rage the most the other night as Kaka kept going over to the yallow/purple number 2 worm for his 2nd. and at that point taking me away from my interupt team, invariably during this moment one of them would stand in a brushfire and then get hit by a Fiero. Can I save them if this happens and I'm in range? Maybe and most likely! but I wont know unless I'm in a reasonable range!
In short, this isn't a hard fight, Hell who died more in normal mode tornadoes than me? IT WAS BECAUSE I DIDN'T UNDERSTAND! Now if I die to a tornado? it's intentional when wiping, or we have a worm alive when we shouldn't and I'm trying to stay in one area to heal the tank.
Those are great
Mehguy — Fri, 10/21/2011 - 11:22Those are great Elapsed!
To elaborate on the worm pics a little, Im going to edit them slightly to help clarify to some other people exactly what Elapsed and I were seeing.
The marking are almost spot on, very good for approximations. Reminder we get 2 worms PER BIRD and 3 birds EACH. SO 3 sets in total.
Blue Fire mark is the boss spawn area, and star is the middle/general area where the meteor spawns.
This is how Sets 1 and 3 are supposed to be
This allows Kaka and I to take the 1st worm(s) that are furthest away from our "sides", BUT it puts us closest to the first caster that spawns so in essence, our group is closer together THUS easier to heal. BUT....
This is how they WERE being done (until we changed it at the end).
The issue that Elapsed was having on Kakas side was that he was NOT taking the proper worm to start. The caster on his side will spawn near triangle first, so it makes more sense to take the Triangle/Diamond worm first because his group should already near triangle dpsing that caster. Where as the way he was doing it, by the time he had to grab his 2nd worm (diamond/triangle) the dps was up by square killing that add and they were too far apart that it was stretch Elapsed thin and he was having the issues healing. So changing it to the way we did allows Kaka to be nearer to his group at the end of each "set" so Elapsed can heal easier.
The 2nd set SHOULD go like this
BUT sometimes this happened...
I would be starting to go towards my 2nd worm, then realize Kaka had bolted accros the room to "my" worm and I would have to make an immediate turn to get to the last remaining worm. While this did not happen every time, it did occur a few times and this is what Elapsed referred to when he was saying Kaka was going to the complete other side of the room. Which gave Elapsed (and Cromi) some ranging issues and people started getting low/dying.
Not everyone is perfect, I know I took the wrong worm as well once in a while. But these were the main issues with the worms and ranging people.
SO... if we are able to keep to the CORRECT gameplan, we SHOULD succeed as long as people dont die to STUPID SHIT!
Hope this was able to help clear up issues or confusion people may have been having. Elapsed, hope this helped a little, didn't mean to step on your toes. Let me know if you were seeing anything really differently than I was.
The Fiery Tornadoes are
saedo — Fri, 10/21/2011 - 09:40The Fiery Tornadoes are pretty slow nowadays. You don't even have to follow tornadoes. What you can do is just stand there. Wait for a tornado to pass, walk up to the ring where it was, wait for a tornado to pass where you were standing, walk back there. Don't have to run around all over the place. That's what I kinda do, though techinically I run around more looking for rings to pump my dps. But if I play it safe, it's what I'd do. Step in, step out. Doesey do and turn your self around.
Also for the worm pics, you know what would help a bit. If you put in the pictures where you are (and maybe Cromi). Maybe an area where you'd like to keep yourself to.
That is almost exactly how I
Mehguy — Fri, 10/21/2011 - 10:27That is almost exactly how I do it, and its by far the easiest way.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gbCZU3GVDCk&feature=related
this video isnt exactly the "crispist", but it clearly shows the guy just following one, then when one passes, he follows that one and just makes a circle. I do the exact same thing except on the far outer right next to the "bad zone". Which you can see clearly on the vid as well, and notice how the tornadoes next to the "bad zone" are all going CLOCKWISE! If everyone can start out on the far outer ring as they can, they will only have to worry about running clockwise to start AND if they do get hit by a tornado spawn, they should only be getting hit by one (not 3!!!) because they will have spread out enough by then so you shouldnt get hit by the last "ring" of them that is IN the "bad zone" going counter-clockwise.
Yea that's pretty much what I
saedo — Fri, 10/21/2011 - 10:35Yea that's pretty much what I try to do pre-nerf. Post-nerf these tornadoes move slower than that so my circle isn't even that wide (unless I gun for rings). But basically back and forth between the 2 paths of tornadoes.
Boobie Bump
Foresight — Thu, 10/20/2011 - 02:21Needs moar boobz imo
Here you go
saedo — Thu, 10/20/2011 - 09:43Here you go Foresight.
Comments on strat?
the "We need your talen
Mehguy — Thu, 10/20/2011 - 12:25the "We need your talent here!" is preferable... "Can you start on Monday?" is not always fun...
To the ground! Later on in
Knoppix (not verified) — Thu, 10/20/2011 - 13:03To the ground!
Later on in life...
All right everyone, take deep
saedo — Thu, 10/20/2011 - 01:44All right everyone, take deep breaths, think happy thoughts. I know last raid went a bit rough. Had a promising start, showed a few glimpses, then frustration set in.
I'm sorry, maybe I've been a little too stubborn on our strat. I've been fearing the state of our dps, but perhaps, after some more research, with a bit of adjustment, we can still do this.
I'm not entirely sure we will do this on Sunday, but here's the outline of a proposal of changes I want to make to our strat.
1. Two, yes two DPS!
All right, I want Plumsauce as FIRE. Foresight and Plum will fly. And fly they will doing their pyroblast tricks, and combustion during burnout tricks, BURN BABY BURN!
However, there has been some agreement that the 2nd ground phase (after burnout) does "seem" to go a little faster. So, I would like Plumsauce to forever stay down from then on (after 1st burnout) to help keep things under control.
Summary: Plumsauce FIRE, Plumsauce + Foresight fly up til 1st Burnout, Foresight only 2nd Burnout, kill before we all die
2. Fieroblasts, can we reduce them?
Checking certain other raids, they take about 1/3rd the fieroblast casts/damage. How is this possible? We need balls out more focused dps on them. The birds, will have to be lower priority (more on this next section).
With 2 up, that means 4 dps down, 2 dps on both sides. Unless it's a Meteor to kill, it should be focus balls to the wall on the caster adds. Get them all down ASAP.
A 2nd adjustment we might have to think about in regarding this.... Getting a 2nd 10 second interrupt for the other side. And the only way I can think of us getting that is, Mehguy dps'ing, and Kaluu tanking. I know. This is probably a hated venture forcing Kaluu to switch out for one boss.
It's an idea to keep in mind. If we can reduce the casts, reduce the cleansing, get it down to a 1/3rd of what we were receiving, happy healers. We can hope focused dps will work, or else we have to think about more interrupts/stuns....
Summary: DPS must focus on caster adds, kill ASAP (interrupt/stun too) unless meteor.
3. Tank DPS has to increase
Remember way back when we were learning normal Alysrazor, and I kinda made some comments on how we need the tank dps to increase as the vast majority of the dps on the birds will be up to them? I'm going to have to do that again.
Tanks need more of a dps rotation, not a threat tank rotation. Mehguy, Heroic Strike more. Both you may consider putting a bit of dps gear on (within reason).
I've looked over other raids, and yea, they can do 10-20K more dps, and provide about 95% of the damage to birds. You two have been hovering around 90%. And since in the above section I want the dps to more focus on caster mobs, it's gonna be almost entirely the tank's responsibility to take down their own bird.
It's just the way it's going to have to be.
Summary: Moar tank deeps.
4. Feathers
All right, we're going to prioritize these. There should be 10 feathers dropping. Here's what I want to see.
Yes, just them, even I will forgo getting them. Obviously the 2 sent up will get theirs, give the healers theirs, and then the tanks can have em too, for easier moving around with their birds.
Then rest of us dps will have to tough it out being slower, but make your way to grabbing feathers in the middle when the opportunity arises. I've seen that after the first Firestorm there's always a pile of feathers to be picked up. Easily reached before getting right back on adds.
Summary: Feathers for flyers, tankers, and healers, oh my.
I hope this can organize the chaos a bit better. With this everyone's a bit more compartmentalized in their roles here. Mages, burn boss. Rest of dps, burn casters. Tanks, burn birds. Healers, save us all!
Thoughts? Additions? Gripes? Pretty pictures? Alternate strat? Boobs?
I've always felt that two DPS
Barfolomeu — Fri, 10/21/2011 - 16:01I've always felt that two DPS up at the start was the way to go. I also agree that tanks should always get a feather too, since we do need to move around a lot, and our survival means your survival. Regarding tank DPS, recall that toward the end when we put two people up at first, I did swap out to my hit trinket for added DPS. I will follow Mehguy's suggestion and reforge my gear too. I'll reforge the hit back to my hit trinket to maximize my hit, as it'll still be WELL below cap afterwards, then add some hit and expertise here and there too, as my expertise is also rather low. The only other thing I can suggest is perhaps having Elapsed get any interrupts on a druid that might otherwise get missed? I know it's asking a lot, but at least he doesn't have to shape shift and perhaps enrage (2 GCDs), which is what Cromi would have to do to Skull Bash. Better yet, stick with the plan, and DPS those fuckers down before they ever get Fieroblast off. I presume that was nerfed in heroic too? i.e. two brushfire casts before the first fiero?
The only change I would make would be to consider letting Plumsauce go back up on second phase. If people start to die off, that's two people already up. I have a feeling Alysra will be at about 25% or less after the first down phase, and we won't really see more than one complete bird phase (2 meteors) before she's dead. We can then switch to the "anyone who can get 3 feathers and get up and DPS" strat at that point and kill her. I've seen, uhh, another guild, do that before.
My last comment is to continue re-iterating that you can still DPS Alysrazor while she's up in the air. She has a HUGE hit box. So, once birds are dead, DPS Alysrazor. During tornadoes, DPS Alysrazor. At the start when she emerges and flies across the room, DPS Alysrazor. After she goes back up and before the worms are up, DPS Alysrazor.
Oh, and yes, boobs.
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We dont really have the
Mehguy — Fri, 10/21/2011 - 17:21We dont really have the greatest group comp for a 10-man, and it definitely feels (IN MY OPINION) that we still have some people (myself included) that need to work on different aspects of their class to do the very best they can. It gets very frustrating to me to see other groups or guilds have people with the same (or very near same) classes/specs as some of us doing heroics, and to look at parses or watch vids on youtube and see they are doing 5-10k+ more average DPS than our guys. It is very irritating especially for me because as far as I can tell, I'm doing everything that they are doing for TG Fury, and Im still behind them, so I'm constantly trying to find that "sweet spot" to get myself to where I should be. One week I respecced all my extra hit into mastery because I found a random thread that explained that it was a better option (mastery is normally considered to be our 2nd worst stat). So I tried it and I was able to get 4k dps better average on dummies. BUT when I brought it into a raid environment when I had to deal with moving mobs and multiple mobs, it just wasnt working out as well, so I had to reforge everything again to get back to where I was. Its all about trial and error and Its been brought up that people should take the time to really research their classes and specs, and it needs to be mentioned again... so... research your class people.
Now I know youre trying to help and put out suggestions, but I am quite frankly tired of hearing the "my guild" and "this other guild I know/heard about" comments. To me it feels very demeaning and makes me feel that you consider yourself better than us. I know youre not trying make it come off that way and youre just trying to be helpful with suggestions, but it really wants to make me ignore you and mute your vent. Maybe try "Lets consider this because I know from experience that it works", definitely sounds less dick-headed-ish (to me at least).
NOW back to the main topic, Im sure our group comps are different between your group and ours, and thats something you really have to consider when you bring it up because those ideas wont necessarily work for us... yet. Youve mentioned for us to DPS alysrazor while were running for tornadoes, while that is a good time for some "free" damage on her, we STILL have people dying to fucking tornadoes. And people obviously arent focusing enough on just LIVING so to have them focus on dpsing when living is more important, isnt advisable. Sending up 2 people at the start is good, but at first it was not because we were having add issues, and we still kind of do. BUT it has gotten more managable over time. I dont feel that sending up 2 dps at the start of the 2nd cycle (after burnout) is advisable yet. During that 2nd cycle is when we are really having add issues, so while yea it will help bring alys down, the people on the ground will likely die (as we have been) because we fall behind on adds. I dont feel (personally) that it is worth the risk. Because if they dont kill him in the air after burnout, the people on the ground will most likely will be dead from having to play catch up with adds, so when those 2 come down during firestorm or tornado the birds or casters will just finish them off and it will be a wipe regardless. I would rather do the slightly longer and safer method until we get certain aspects worked out. Im a little more open to having a 2nd dps go up during the 2nd cycle AFTER the first meteor/firestorm session, because we may have gotten caught up with adds with that extra dps help.
As for your gear, you will have to find some DK specific tactics, but from some of what Ive read, DKs are in general considered the worst tank for the birds. I was able to find a few war specific threads on the fight and some aspects may work for you. They recommend getting hit/exp cap for 87 mobs and its recommended to use 2pc T11 and 2pc t12, so luckily I still had some various pieces saved and extra 378 pieces from valor or drops that I was able to change out and reforge/gem to make it work, and I still had to spend over 2k in mats/enchants/gemming/reforging and re-reforging pieces to make it work where I still have a viable solid normal tank set AND a set that works for Alys w/o severely gimping myself. You will likely have to do the same and see if there are any DK specific threads on H alys 10-man. I know Ill be taking some more hits because my avoidance was gimped slightly, as will yours, but as long as our worm priority and kiting is on point, the healing SHOULDNT be an issue. And the issue is not that Elapsed and Cromi CANT keep us up along with the DPS, the issue is that there are range issues occuring to where one or both of them have to make the decision to play catch up on healing on either the dps or us because of how far apart we are spread.
I think Saedo's idea for the feathers are good for priority, and as much as I enjoy having one feather, honestly I can live without one. it does make kiting them easier, but usually after I get my first worm, i dont move around too much other than to get back closer to my side for easier healing for cromi. I try to stay in one place as much as possible and wail on the bird because its hit box is stupid small and buggy so thats less dmg. So when it comes time for tantrum I just heroic leap right to the worm, no kiting or backpeddling required. So if someone else feels they NEED to get a feather at the start of each cycle, go ahead, I can grab one after the first or 2nd firestorm.
Like I said. I always feared
saedo — Fri, 10/21/2011 - 16:16Like I said. I always feared how our dps looked on the ground. Now, if you tanks can up your own dps and practically solo kill the birds yourself, that would go a long way in relieving that fear of mine's.
Fieroblast will go off. At least on the side I'm not on since we lack that 10 sec interrupt. It was nerfed, but not to the point of what normal mode is. Normal mode I think we see 3 brushfires then a fieroblast, takes like 20 seconds and their HP are low enough that we kill them with only 1 or 0 casts to interrupt.
In heroic, the pattern I've noticed is that it's 2 brushfires then a fieroblast. We get about 8 seconds between each blast. A 10 second interrupt would go a long way in locking it down completely. And their HPs are significantly higher so we can't burn down fast. My side at least typically gets to 4 maybe 5 fieroblasts before it dies. But, from parses of a certain other raid, I see them capable of locking down (as much as possible) with a hunter/mage combo too. And a feral druid on the other side. So much like how our raid operates.
The only difference would probably be that we force our dps way too much time on the birds, when instead they should be 100% focused on burning/interrupting casters. Only when they're down we'd help chip the birds down a bit. So it goes back to, tank dps needs to increase.
As for the 2nd ground phase, I suppose we can try keeping Plumsauce up and flying. Again, just don't make me scared by having adds overrun us. ;p
As for DPS'ing Alysrazor. I still say play it safe. Especially during Fiery Tornadoes. I don't care if the tanks fail at dps and the birds are still up. Live. Just live. A few extra hits isn't worth it if you die. Live. I repeat. Live.
I can corroborate that its 2
Mehguy — Fri, 10/21/2011 - 17:17I can corroborate that its 2 brushfire then a fiero. But one thing I HAVE noticed, is that sometimes when a new add spawns and I charge it to get some build up rage, itll stun them for a sec or 2 and then they sometimes they go RIGHT to a fieroblast instead of following their "normal" rotation. So I will have to avoid using that tactic as it may be detrimental. ALSO, I will endeavor to macro my spell reflect to one of my buttons. I started using it during some of the last attempts and noticed that while it didnt necessarily help bring the adds down faster because of how randomly they may cast on me, it did prevent extra healing when I was able to use it and they DID cast at me. So that may help a little too.
Ive been doing some reading
Mehguy — Thu, 10/20/2011 - 13:00Ive been doing some reading on tank dmg today, particularly for 10-man Heroic. Im thinking that with what I have for my set right now, along with my DPS set/trinkets, I MIGHT be able to get much higher dps... around 95/100k after messing around with reforging stats and changing some enchants. Itll take some of my survivability down, but I think the returns will be well worth it. Also tinkering with a dmg rotation as compared to my normal rotation... have some macro's to change.
Did some tweaking tonight
Mehguy — Fri, 10/21/2011 - 00:41Did some tweaking tonight with everything, and followed some advice/threads on the subject. Based off testing on dummies it shows to be pretty promising... but again, those are on dummies. Wont really know how it will work out for sure until we get into the fight. I think it should hold up ok since Ill be getting hit and getting rage... kinda sucks testing tank stuff on dummies.
I didnt really have to gimp myself too much on avoidance thankfully. My dodge is a bit lower, but parry overall isnt that much lower.. and oddly enough my mastery/block went up. Weird. Still have to tinker with macro's as they arent quite set yet. Should be g2g on Sunday when we kill that bitch.
Very well thought out, I like
Knoppix (not verified) — Thu, 10/20/2011 - 11:10Very well thought out, I like it. Let's hope it greaty reduces the healers madness.
Here it is.
saedo — Wed, 10/19/2011 - 23:36Here it is.