Downfall - "Droppin bombs since '04"

  • home
  • forums
  • calendar
  • gallery
  • handbook
  • raid hub
  • epgp
Home › Blogs › saedo's blog

From Vanilla to Now: Why WoW is a Better Game but a Worse MMO

saedo's picture

saedo — Mon, 12/12/2011 - 18:31

So this has been on my mind the past few weeks. Through various conversations with various people, a lot of the old guard, vanilla players have been a bit disillusioned with the current game. From one perspective, I do believe Vanilla sucked compared to the game now. Here I gather my thoughts in this blog / essay listing my reasons for thinking how WoW has improved as a game overall from Vanilla to Cataclysm, but has suffered from an MMO standpoint as a result.

1. Theorycrafting

How it improved the game?

Back in the old days, it was... pretty random. Gear had like every single stat on it. Dodge gear on dps gear, spirit on everything, talent trees were full of fluff that were useless (utility) talents. It's as if there was no focus, stuff slapped and glued together just cause some designer thought it'd be cool or something.

But, the fanbase started learning. They saw which stats benefitted them the most. They complained about all the fluff. They figured out what was the best possible way to bring the most out of their characters.

And Blizzard listened. They went through class revamps. Talent revamps every expansion. Buffs, nerfs, balancing acts. Right or wrong, they kept fiddling with the knob to find a way they can all be satisfied with.

As a result, with our streamlined gear and talents, we've all become far more powerful characters.

How it became a worse MMO?

Everyone's become a pretty powerful character, even tanks and healers. The old days before dual specs, or when gold was hard to scrape together, alts were used for the purpose of farming, or those non-dps had to find help to get anything done.

Instead of forcing players to need to seek help from others to get farming or whatever done to raid. Everyone has become perfectly self-sufficient.

2. Consumables

How it improved the game?

Back in the old days, every single buff stacked. You can drink like 50 different elixirs and mind control mobs to get extra fire resistance buffs. And pretty much all of those buffs of course disappear on death, so you'd have to farm stacks and stacks of the stuff for a raid night of wipes. Run up and down Felwood for four hours getting everything you need.

It's what the progression guilds needed to do to kill content. The ones that were able to farm for hours had the advantage.

So now, it's all stripped down to 1 flask, 1 food. Flasks persist through death, food is relatively easy to obtain. Everyone can easily be fully buffed with minimal time devoted to farming. Can use time for other ventures, find other fun in the game.

How it became a worse MMO?

Remember when Felwood was a warzone. And like the previous section, healers and tanks needed help farming. How it was pretty much impossible for most guilds to have people farm up everything they need all by themselves?

Consumbles needed the power of a guild to achieve. Guilds would send out a collection notice. People would farm what they can the best they can, pool the resources and redistribute the consumables. Perhaps even give them arbitriary amounts of the DKP so they can feel virtually rewarded.

Every boss, every wipe, every kill represented hours that the guild itself put into farming. That was your reward for camping that lotus spawn point for hours. And there's a bit of comradery knowing most of the people around you did something similar.

 

3. Server Transfers

How it improved the game?

It opened the door for guilds to recruit. No longer stuck on finding people on the same server with possibly several guilds all competing for people. You have the ability to go out and seek a gem who's not having luck on their server.

Or perhaps you are stuck on a server without a guild that fits you. No longer forced to re-roll and start everything from scratch. You can seek out better pastures.

How it became a worse MMO?

Before you can server transfer, there was a time where reputation mattered. You an asshole? Ninja some piece of gear? BAM! You're labelled by the server and your social endgame options become very limited.

You're almost pretty much forced to reroll starting over. Have fun, was it worth it? This used to be that deterrent.

None of that matters anymore. Shit for rep here, transfer elsewhere. For the most part, no one's gonna stalk you trying to spread your old reputation. And even then, most would give the benefit of a doubt to the server transfer a clean slate to start over.

And you can do that again. Over, and over again.

 

4. Badges of Justice

How it improved the game?

Or Valor Points as they've evolved to today's system. In its earliest incarnation it was a raid boss drop only. Collect the badges, exchange it for gear for slots you have trouble filling. Good thought, in case the RNG gods are against you, you can still get something suitable for it.

Then, it spread to heroics. The 5 mans were dead, this gave reason for people to head back into the heroics over and over again. Farm the badge, collect enough, get gear.

This gave a nice channel for alts, potential raiders, etc to more quickly catch up in gear to raid, or whatever.

How it became a worse MMO?

It's become too easy to get epics. Which, makes epics... less epic. And in that sense, raids drops are no longer the only source of omg drool gear. You can almost create a perfectly viable endgame set of gear without ever raiding.

The value of raid gear drops relatively and no longer has that shining luster to it like before.

 

5. Dungeon Finder

How it improved the game?

Instead of sitting in trade chat all day or where ever to look for a group, or that tank/healer that doesn't exist on your server. You enter this, the game finds people from cross servers, fills it for you and you can go go go.

Pop in the queue, leave the city, go farming, do dailies, even if you're a dps, eventually usually within 20 mins or so, you'll have your group.

Heroics farmed, valor points obtained, rinse, repeat.

How it became a worse MMO?

You used to have to find a group. You may start to know tanks and healers on the server. You may even become friends with them. Maybe even recruit some gems you find in these groups you happened to put together in trade chat.

But no, you don't have to put any effort into making a dungeon run anymore. Push a button, get in, and your group may even know all the fights and what to do, and say absolutely nothing at all the entire run. It's like a single player game, except your sidekicks are silent instead of trying to make witty observations over and over again.

 

6. 10 Mans

How it improved the game?

Everyone's that's managed a raid probably hates it. A thankless job that always has you wishing you can just trim the fat so you can win the game easier.

From 40 mans, you wished to trim those 10 afk dead weight. From 25 mans, you wished to trim those 10 dead weight. From 10 mans, you wished to trim those 10 dead weight, oh wait.

But still, each time the raid was trimmed, your idealistic side went thinking, goodbye dead weight, let's burn content quickly. Logistically it did become easier and easier to handle, simplying loot systems each and every time.

Managing less people is generally easier, and more groups were formed to see content.

How it became a worse MMO?

By the time it trimmed down to 10 mans, each became their own self-sufficient group. They likely became the people you interacted most with. That big guild feeling was gone. 10 people isn't a guild, it's like a group of friends.

At least with 25s or 40s, there was a guild feeling with a clique you'd interact with most, and then there's other cliques you'd simply work together with to down a boss.

With a big raid, recruiting was almost constant. People came, people left, people waitlisted, everyone wanted to be a part of it and there was never enough room.

These small raids, each self-sufficient entities, no real loot system, so no drive to wait around, only recruited when absolutely neccessary. That resulted in more stagnation, membership wasn't much in flux, people left, but not always people replaced them.

 

7. Raid Finder

How it improved the game?

Most people love it. Push a button, wait a minute, get into a raid to see end game content.

Use it to improve your gear before your real raid. Use it to see the raid mechanics so you have a general idea of what happens before your real raid.

Endgame content for everyone.

How it became a worse MMO?

Endgame content for everyone. So part of my motivation to raid was to see content. And now I've already seen it all ends on 2 toons. This did indeed compromise that motivation.

All that's left in the "normal" raid is to kill it while taking more damage, maybe a couple new tricks, with people I know, rather than a group of strangers.

No longer is it, beat the challenge, see the content, it's now content is accessible to everyone, challenges are optional.

 

 

Afterword

Thus, the crux of the matter is social interaction. No longer are we forced to painstakenly find groups for ourselves to obtain help. No longer do we need to band together as a guild to scour the world for resources to take down a big bad boss. This game has improved in every way from a single player perspective, any single player can effectively do it all without interacting with anyone else. Only those optional challenges should you choose to do makes you reach out into the MMO community to create social bonds.

And so, I don't believe WoW will ever outright die. There will be no single WoW-killers. WoW will likely exist for years to come, but no longer enjoy their perch on the monopoly. The old guard of WoW will likely have found other ventures to try. While WoW will just settle into one of the many niches of the MMO genre. Perhaps trying to attract the ADD adolescents with Pokemon and easy quick rewards vs effort ventures that can all be done solo without much need for social interaction.

  • WoW 1.0
  • saedo's blog
Derchlon's picture

For me, it has been a few

Derchlon — Fri, 02/24/2012 - 11:39

For me, it has been a few things:

If you have the option between 10 man and 25 man, with equal difficulty between the two, you will almost always pick the 10 man because it is easier to manage.  That effectively kills 25 man raiding, and the "guild" feeling that comes with it.

Killing bosses was hard.  You killed Vashj or Kael?  That's awesome, and you may have some gear to show for it.  Now, killing bosses is almost an expected task.  I think of it like doing pushups.  It is not that difficult to do a single pushup.  If pushups had heroic modes, you would be doing the same pushup with with someone sitting on your back.  It isn't really different enough for me to want to do it.

Instant 5 mans.  Here is where I'm torn a little bit.  I remember having to grind through Shadow Labs trying to get Sonic Spear.  I ran through that place at least 34 different times successfully, and I had to scrap together groups every day, trying to get that spear.  There was no instant 5 man I could run to pick it up, I had to do all the legwork myself.  Ask in general chat for a tank/healer.  Find a couple dps.  And even then, half the times you run it or more, people quit on you and you're stuck having wasted your time.  Having the chance to get into a dungeon and run it almost whenever you want with little effort on your part is fine, but I resent it because of all the hard work that it used to take me to get even a fraction of the dungeon runs that are possible now in that same time frame.

shakos's picture

This is a pretty depressing

shakos — Sat, 12/31/2011 - 18:40

This is a pretty depressing thread.

Karli's picture

I just read this and found

Karli — Sat, 12/31/2011 - 12:34

I just read this and found myself nodding my head the whole time.

What's kind of ironic, though, is that even though I do miss the challenge/epic nature of vanilla wow (and BC), I know quite well I could never justify the kind of time and energy I spent playing at this point in my life. 

 

But mostly, I just wanted to say that I have gotten sad every time I log on and see less and less of the old crew, and I miss you guys!  Even with all the drama (emo Shamans!  Jadrax!  Cross & Lemon!), there was a good solid group of people working toward a common goal.  It didn't matter that it was slaying internet dragons; we still had to cooperate, communicate, and support people we essentially did not know in good faith.  There's something to be said about that. 

 

<3

Elapsed's picture

a great deal of the old crew

Elapsed — Sat, 12/31/2011 - 21:00

a great deal of the old crew is now in guild on Star Wars. Were all seeing names that make us smile when we login. and you should hear how giddy Quisjaa gets on vent when he sees whos getting invited to guild. So I suppose my point is, the community wont die, even if the original intrest in wow is starting  (or in some cases completely has) to dwindle.

I prefer the term:

Keisjaa — Tue, 01/03/2012 - 00:16

I prefer the term: semi-controlled enthusiasm

 

RAZ!!!!!!

STAR WARS!!!!!!!

(smash)

Raziella's picture

So am I gonna be the last one

Raziella — Tue, 01/03/2012 - 00:43

So am I gonna be the last one to join this shindig?

It was all downhill after

Kwondre — Thu, 12/29/2011 - 08:13

It was all downhill after killing Ragnaros the first time imho.

I totally agree that the game has moved from one where you needed to interact non stop with folks to get stuff done, but now (or at least when I left) the game became one where you really only needed your guild.

I disagree that some of the enhancements (like 5 man dungeon finder) were negative though. Maybe a little bit antisocial cause its a rinse and repeat...but that's what 5 mans are...easy gear/badges, rinse and repeat. 

I think the server transfering is by far the worst offender...

Gosh i miss forums....

Shihli's picture

You never answer your texts

Shihli — Thu, 12/29/2011 - 19:22

You never answer your texts anymore!  :P

my bads!!!!

Kwondre — Fri, 12/30/2011 - 08:12

my bads!!!!

saedo's picture

Damn you Garreth and I regret

saedo — Thu, 12/15/2011 - 14:22

Damn you Garreth and I regret reading anonymous internet comments on Reddit now.

QQ I have no life cause I didn't neglect a family while working 40 hours to grind to Grand Marshal and have piss poor grammar cause I didn't know I was supposed to write a masterpiece of an English essay that was gonna be published to the masses.

Anyways, got that out of the system.

And quite a few missed the point.    I was never going down the path, the MMO must return to Vanilla to make it all better.    The point was all, this is a better game now.    Everything I listed is a positive to the MMO genre and we can never go back, but there are some unintended social consequences.    So that nostalgia feelings old school raiders had, feeling epic and all, why we feel the way we did back then.

Decipher that grammar go.

Agoney's picture

It's a good arguement and

Agoney — Thu, 12/15/2011 - 00:11

It's a good arguement and well presented Saedo. I haven't played much of Cata other then hitting 85 and pretty much logging out afterward, so I can't comment on that. 

You guys pretty much hit it spot on. I think the whole social enviroment of the game just went away. They have LFR now I guess (complete joke imo from what I know of it)..Consumables now and with WOTLK are a joke.. where is the social aspect of the game now? Spamming general?

I enjoyed the Vanilla days, I enjoyed the TBC days. WOTLK fell off for me. Perhaps 40 man raids were too much, I think Blizz got it right with 25. Everything know just seems like a bunch of reward without the risk. Epics are pretty much just handed out. I hear the heroic bosses are pretty legit, and that brings me to my next point.

The whole dual mode / achievement system is something I was against from the start. The people who complained about difficulty in vanilla / tbc were the ones who couldn't cut it. Thats what made the game EPIC. We got these items because it was an epic gauntlet each week to down bosses. WOTLK, most players just wanted to down the boss, and get some gear. "Why go for heroic when we can just clear on normal.. the items are nearly as the same" Achievements gimped the raid in ways that were just not fun. Kill something X Y Z this week, then Y Z X the next to pass the achievement.. that made me just ZZZZZZ.

I guess, if it were up to me, I'd do this. Also, this is why Blizzard does what they do, and I do what I do, haha.

25 man raids only.

No LFR, LFG system for 5 mans.

1 difficulty for each Raid.

Non heroic / Heroic for 5 mans.

Reset consumables/stacking/mats required for TBC days.

Each tier of raid gets significantly harder.

I'm sure there's other stuff, but I'm tired :( I wish I had the time now adays to play a game like that, but sadly those days are gone. SO OLD SO OLD :(

saedo's picture

You so old.

saedo — Thu, 12/15/2011 - 00:45

You so old.

garreth's picture

So old.

garreth — Thu, 12/15/2011 - 00:39

So old.

garreth's picture

Really really well put.

garreth — Wed, 12/14/2011 - 16:32

Really really well put.

However, I don't pretend to think I'd want to go back to Vanilla. We seem to forget how grueling and brutal that was - though Saedo does touch on that.

We're jaded. We've seen it all. We're all sort of chasing that first "high" of raiding back when we first killed Ragnaros :)

saedo's picture

Yea I try to touch on why

saedo — Wed, 12/14/2011 - 16:57

Yea I try to touch on why people always say those good old days in Vanilla were more epic, more satisfying.

And I just believe it was all psychological.

Nowadays, the gear is better, players are better, fights are more complex, lore is technically even better presented, anyone can do anything in the game without restriction of finding a lot of people to group with.   In theory, the game is better overall.

The only thing really missing is the fact that you went in there with a big ass army, after spending many many gruelling hours farming consumables, and getting gear that was epic'ly rare.  

And that's what made it a grand MMO back in the days.   An army scouring the globe for those highly competed for resources to kill a villian very few people were able to.    Psychological high.

garreth's picture

Quick note: I don't think

garreth — Wed, 12/14/2011 - 17:18

Quick note: I don't think "Foreward" is the wod you're looking for at the bottom.

saedo's picture

I see "Foreword", not the

saedo — Wed, 12/14/2011 - 17:21

I see "Foreword", not the right "wod"?

Dragon's picture

It should be Afterword since

Dragon — Wed, 12/14/2011 - 17:55

It should be Afterword since it occurs at the end of your argument rather than at the beginning.

saedo's picture

Alrighty then.

saedo — Wed, 12/14/2011 - 18:01

Alrighty then.

Dragon's picture

After reading this I don't

Dragon — Wed, 12/14/2011 - 15:53

After reading this I don't think you could have been any more on the mark Saedo. In Vanilla I had my friends list full of people that I pvped with. As cross server battleground and then cross battlegroups appeared, we were mostly all able to do everything individually. 

What made TBC and Wrath enjoyable for me was our community, but with how things were pushed by mid Wrath till now, it wasn't as required or present anymore and the "Old Guard" had already started to drift away. 

Anyway thanks for the great write up.

All I have to say is Hello

Shinzwei — Wed, 12/14/2011 - 13:29

All I have to say is Hello Fucking Kitty Island Adventure


 

Great post, for me it is how

Knoppix (not verified) — Wed, 12/14/2011 - 15:55

Great post, for me it is how lackluster everything in the game has become and how easy it is overall, which is not a terrible thing since I am getting older and have less and less time to play games hardcore. That being said, nothing is epic anymore gear/raid boss/w/e else, nothing is hard to get mats/gear/w/e else, the guild friendships and the team is gone...hardly anyone plays WoW that I even know well...my friends list is damn near void. Nobody cares about anybody or anything anymore everyone is out for themselves and their own personal agenda for the most part.

In the end the massive lack of social interaction is what has made WoW a horrible MMO. Another thing that is making it terrible is all the self entitled little shits that are comming to the game thinking they are all bad ass and they are the God's of the game. These are the same jackasses that will transfer servers multiple times because they are little asshats and people hate them, sometimes they even find a whole guild of asshats and they then fit in to a group everyone hates. I think more than anything the lack of respect for others and the elitism combined end up ruining the social interaction as well.

The last aspect that ruined WoW for me in the past was the competativeness. I was so competative everything got to me and when people failed and did not show up to raid or just plain sucked nuts at the game, it drove me bat shit insane, I had to be the best, I had to be on top and I had to clear content before other guilds...in the end it completly ruined the fun of the game. I have since my last WoW leave come back and I just do not care about competition anymore, it is not worth it what so ever. I come to raid, if it is cancelled because people are a no show, I just don't care now...I find something else to do no harm done.

I also think the WoW lore is becoming very bland, vague and generic like RIFT.

I would love some comments and feedback, I know my thoughts might be scattered and not the best, sorry.

saedo's picture

Well I think those self

saedo — Wed, 12/14/2011 - 16:48

Well I think those self entitled shits stem from a few of my points.

Server Reputation (Transfers) -> When it mattered, when rerolling was
a dreadful option to look at, that kept a lot of people in check.   But
in a world where you can remain anonymous and just slip in and out of
any population, you see the worse in humanity, like any internet locale.

Theorycrafting -> enabled some people to have a someone defined model of being superior to someone else.   No tolerance for the casual player, or sympathy if it's just gear / poor machine / fatigue or whatever holding them back.

Easy Epics (Valor Points, Dungeon/Raid Finder) -> Sort of tied into theorycrafting point, in that once you have the easy gear, you expect everyone to have the easy gear.    No sympathy for the casual, the time limited, etc, etc.

Lack of Forcing You to Create Positive Social Interactions (guild farming consumables, forming good groups for dungeons/raids/pvp, etc) -> Part of the appeal of an MMORPG should be to go out and seek those bonds.   Otherwise you're just in a single player RPG, with a 4chan chat attached to it.  

 

Competitiveness, well that's your perogative.  But yea sure things are probably more enjoyable if you're not completely anal about it.

As for lore, maybe.  But I think a chunk of it is due to books now.   A lot of the supposed good lore is in there.  So Blizz wants you to buy those.   And just isn't presenting them quite as well in game.

Plus, the presentation of SWTOR lore just blows it away.   The age of WoW is showing and definitely needs an overhaul.

You summed that up pretty

Knoppix (not verified) — Wed, 12/14/2011 - 20:46

You summed that up pretty well.

Brilliant Saedo, very well

Keisjaa — Mon, 12/12/2011 - 19:03

Brilliant Saedo, very well written & thought out.

I have to agree with you, there won't be a single wow killer. With every new "revolutionary" MMO that comes out, WoW does see some of it's population decline, some return, some merely disappear to other things.  As one of the "old guard" I find that wow isn't all "OMG IT SUX NOW" it just seems to be a combination of spreading itself thin (adding all these new games/features) yet the core of it (eg: Raiding) seems to be getting less & less exciting.  Don't get me wrong it's been 7 years..that's a long time even for non gaming activities, and a hellof a set of years it's been, but the honeymoon is long over.

 

something to add to #6 (10 man raids)

It also made the class/buffs a large factor in their success. Having to balance as many buffs(at least the ones that benefit your comp) as possible made recruiting a massive pain at times, say you have no mage/shaman, your options for heroism (generally accepted as a necessity)are quite limited. It does at times make blizzard a little more attentive to balancing issues when one class(not Spec) is lagging behind and not brought to raid.

Random image

Knoppix in Bora Bora

Navigation

  • Content
  • Raid Parses
  • The Downfall Handbook
  • User list
  • Polls
  • Groups
  • Popular content

Who's new

  • Babyconan
  • Grantlius
  • Ecology
  • fumabomb
  • firstslacker

Latest image

PMS Logo for Legion

Archives

  • September 2016 (1)
  • August 2016 (5)
  • July 2016 (8)
  • June 2016 (2)
  • May 2016 (1)
  • March 2016 (3)
  • February 2016 (2)
  • January 2016 (5)
  • August 2015 (1)
  • May 2015 (3)

Recent comments

  • App closed with extreme
    7 hours 17 min ago
  • Guild App closed at his
    4 weeks 1 day ago
  • Once we get the new site,
    7 weeks 1 day ago
  • Is the time frame posted in server time?
    7 weeks 2 days ago
  • Awesome. Thanks. Once I
    9 weeks 1 day ago
  • I'd be happy to stick around
    9 weeks 1 day ago
  • Possibly
    9 weeks 1 day ago
  • More necro
    10 weeks 2 days ago
  • Story time!
    11 weeks 3 days ago
  • I;ve downladed drop box, if
    13 weeks 17 hours ago

Active forum topics

  • April 1st 2006
  • Nostalarious: "Blizzard wants Vanilla servers"
  • Galaga 13/13 Heroic by Deposing A Tyrant
  • Poker Face Achieves in one night! Glory of Hellfire Raider
  • Glory of The Hellfire Raider
  • Galaga Destroys Heroic Archimonde AOTC 12/13H
  • Galaga takes out Thomas the Train (7/10 H BRF)
more

Recent blog posts

  • So I guess this is the end...
  • Shaedo's Soloing Extravaganza
  • Shaedo UI Extravaganza
  • Big site updates this weekend!
  • This is for all the Hearthstone players out there
  • My First Full Day on Beta
  • State Of <Downfall> 2014
  • Scaron taking a break
  • How Gorgonnash's Connections went
  • Let's Talk about Mythic Raids
more

Poll

What do you think about no flying for an entire expansion?
YES) It makes me feel more immersed in the game lore.
15%
YES) It encourages more PvP! (Please explain how in comments)
5%
YES) I miss riding my ground mounts.
9%
MAYBE) If you make all of my flying mounts able to be ground too.
8%
MAYBE) if ground mounts are sped up to 200% speed (or higher)
26%
NO) I don't have enough time when I'm on to be riding everywhere
7%
NO) I have spent too much time getting various levels of flying to be wasting it.
11%
NO) It encourages more PVP! (please explain in the comments)
0%
NO) I love flying.
19%
Total votes: 74
  • 38comments
  • Older polls

Popular content

All time:

  • Professor Putricide Strategy Page
  • Rotface Strategy Guide
  • Arthas, the Lich King Strategy Page
  • Sindragosa Strategy Page
  • Toravon the Ice Watcher Strategy Guide
  • home
  • forums
  • calendar
  • gallery
  • handbook
  • raid hub
  • epgp

I notice your oeuvre is monochromatic.
This site is proudly powered by Drupal.