Disrupter's Blog
Disrupter — Tue, 06/10/2008 - 00:06
This is just a terrible test and if it works it'll be my own little wish list/theorycraft stuff for me to keep track of, thats what these blogs are for right? XD
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Poll
What do you think about no flying for an entire expansion?
YES) It makes me feel more immersed in the game lore.
15%
YES) It encourages more PvP! (Please explain how in comments)
5%
YES) I miss riding my ground mounts.
9%
MAYBE) If you make all of my flying mounts able to be ground too.
8%
MAYBE) if ground mounts are sped up to 200% speed (or higher)
26%
NO) I don't have enough time when I'm on to be riding everywhere
7%
NO) I have spent too much time getting various levels of flying to be wasting it.
11%
NO) It encourages more PVP! (please explain in the comments)
0%
NO) I love flying.
19%
Total votes: 74
My 2 Cents is, if we're not
Disrupter — Wed, 06/11/2008 - 02:53My 2 Cents is, if we're not making everyone spec for the maximum effect on bosses we spend all night wiping on, why are we going to do it on a different boss?
I mean, not an attack at Sorahn or anything, but we've had Sorahn/Nettibbeb as fire when we were attempting to get through the elemental phase of Illidan, I even specced into improved blizzard and all the snaring goodies to help with the demon phase. I wasn't given any praise, i did it knowing full well no one is going to notice that contribution.
I don't expect a cookie or anything, people probably think I'm frost for the soloing goodies like shatter. I don't have shatter in my raid spec, instead I get magic attunement, arcane impact, and arcane meditation. The only "non raid" goody I get in frost is improved frost nova, and thats only to get further down the tree.. I was under the impression from the theorycraft I've been reading for the last, like, half a year, was enough to take my word for it that I'll be the spec I feel is right for the right job.
I've been leaning towards Arcane for Hyjal, and Frost towards Bt... if it's necessary then so be it, fire for Sunwell. The problem is Kalecgos there is no such thing as a CoE on the demon phase, stacking up scorches each time is a massive loss to dps, and the increase crit wild magic debuff could easily cause me to accidentally pull aggro XD. (It's an awesome debuff, just can't control when I crit ><.) So it's not really going to do better dps there. It might on Brutallus though, we'll see.
One thing to consider though, before we start making people spec specific specs, is that we can actually do this with 7 healers. I've been reading most raids do it with 8, with a higher end of 1800 dps.. Maybe Saedo can comment/confirm that?
Some raids 8, some raids 7.
saedo — Wed, 06/11/2008 - 09:58Some raids 8, some raids 7. Remember, it's a dps race. If we go with 8, the average dps from each dps goes from 1737 dps to 1852 dps. Can we pull that off? I dunno. Can typical guilds do that when they're learning Brutallus? Some yea. Remember, Brutallus is a gear check. Every week you go there, assumedly you have a little more gear. So it just gets easier and easier. You can start skimping down on the dps then.
For Kalecgos demon scorches. I don't really see a problem if 3-4 of you are indeed fire. Except the beginning, there should be 1-2 of you in the demon realm at pretty much all times. Refreshing that same scorch debuff.
I've been looking a lot at the WWS Scoreboard: http://www.wwsscoreboard.com/topdps.php
You know what I found? All the top dps mages in Sunwell are fire. Take what you will from that statement. Just telling you how the highest dps guilds are running.
To be blunt. I've made my
Disrupter — Wed, 06/11/2008 - 11:36To be blunt. I've made my gear decisions and gemming around Frost, which ment I was focusing more on haste, and skipping out as much as possible on the hit, since with the tier gear I'd have plenty of hit.
Telling me now that I need to be fire is like stabbing me in the back, all this raiding I've done and planning I've done is to waste. The optimal dps set up for me for fire, which is what I'm sure you'll all want, will require a revamping of my gems which I currently do not have the money or badges for said gem changes.
I'm generally the 2nd on dps as frost/fire, and generally 1st dps as arcane (vs the other mages). Frost can't compete with Arcane on alot of the fights, but it sure as hell can compete with fire on them. So I'm going to stick by my decision for frost. I'm going to start pouring over parses to make sure I can 100% back up something before I say it. Don't want to be false :P. But I'm fairly sure I am fairly consistantly the 2nd on dps mage as frost/fire, and the #1 dps mage as arcane... (Can't say for sure, Sorahns never arcane, for all I know he's a beastly arcane mage better then I :P.)
Parse checking time!
Like I said, I'm just saying
saedo — Wed, 06/11/2008 - 11:51Like I said, I'm just saying the ones that got tagged as the highest dps mages in Sunwell, are all fire. I went through Brutallus parses. I looked up their armory. And, every single mage was fire. Only really 2 specs I saw, the 2/48/11, and the 0/50/11. I'm assuming they're fire for a reason.
Does this mean you have to be fire? Not neccessarily. If you can do better as frost. Do it. If you can hit that scoreboard as one a frost mage. Go for it. You'd be in the minority, but more power to ya if you can achieve it.
Movement is going to affect
Shihli — Tue, 06/10/2008 - 22:08Movement is going to affect each spec in roughly the same way, as is silence ...
The specs are close enough
Dufe — Tue, 06/10/2008 - 21:23The specs are close enough that theorycrafted numbers aren't fully convincing due to the dynamics of individual fights. (ie movement, silences, multiple targets)
http://spreadsheets.google.co
Agoney — Tue, 06/10/2008 - 18:46http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=p_bwhq0GnN9sxOPHdoO0uXw&hl=en
Mages Prob have the spread sheet already, its just a simulated DPS spreadsheet per multiple specs based on various item levels (t4,t5,t6)
Frost & Fire are almost on par with each other and perform well, espeacially the longer the fight. Arcane seems to be decent for fast, quick fights.
Fire lock dmg is
Epatrick — Tue, 06/10/2008 - 17:31Fire lock dmg is par/slightly better personal dps, but if there is a shadow priest in raid, a lock will always throw bolts instead of incinerates. weaving/shadow vuln. is a more potent combo than a scorch/immolate build, mostly for the fact that a bolt lock will have nether prot, and nether prot owns face.
If you think about last
saedo — Tue, 06/10/2008 - 16:01If you think about last night's Illidan. We had 1 frost, 1 fire, and 1 arcane mage.
So, Winter's Chill, Improved Scorch were stacked alone and only really benefitted 1 person each (maybe minor buff to someone else).
Probably some of the times, if not all, if you were distracted by parasites or what not, that debuff you do may have fallen off so you'd have to ramp it up again.
So something to consider is that it might be better if any of you could've backed up the other in keeping up the debuffs. Or at least ramp it up far faster.
Well the only spec that
Disrupter — Tue, 06/10/2008 - 17:35Well the only spec that would really have any Synergy other then leaching off other classes would be a Fire mage with fire slinging warlocks.
Frost mages brings winterchill for the Arcane mages when they're low and slinging frostbolts... (They crit VERY hard.. and 10% more crit makes it very nice.)
Arcane just brings raw damage. In my Arcane and Frost specs, I always pick up Magic Attument, which is awesome for the healers on alot of fights. Thrown up on a blood boil victom, to increase healing from ALL healers by 360. Thats an amazing buff.
I personally want to respec back to Arcane, it's my favorite spec, I do a good chunk more dps, but if my Spriest dies I am gimped, or if it's a fight where the healers need an spriest, I am gimped. That and I've gotten the general concensus from a few people that they'd rather me be fire, then arcane.
Lastly, I don't really care what anyone has to say about what dps does what damage for Mages. I am fully 100% aware of each specs capabilities. There has been many times were I would of died and didn't because of my spec. Some of them being my fault, some of them being other raiders fault. A good example is that Monday night wipe fest on Council, the last attempt Karlizeth died and I was second on threat on the mage (I did this out of sheer wanting to make sure we don't wipe, and have been doing it for a while) and even though my stam was low, and I had to iceblock twice at just the right time as to not die, and to not own someone else, we managed to kill the fuckers.
I've tried talking to our higher ups about up coming attempts and Brutallus and what they'd recommend I'd do to help the raid dps, but I haven't gotten much feedback, busy people are just that, busy. So I'll stick by my choice in specs for each raid we do. Might not notice but I generally am not frost for full Hyjal runs, and I'm generally not arcane for longer fights like council. I'm leaning towards arcane for Brutallus, partially because fires dps increase mostly comes from the last 20%, and arcane doesn't require us to survive to 20% to do it's high end dps ^^.
My point was more that mages
saedo — Tue, 06/10/2008 - 17:54My point was more that mages (with exception of arcane) seems to synergize better with themselves if they're of the same spec.
Like 2 fire mages personal dps should be higher than a solo fire mage's due to the shared scorch responsibility.
Of the various raiding mage
Shihli — Tue, 06/10/2008 - 15:50Of the various raiding mage specs, which one(s) do you think have the most group synergy?
For example, MM Hunters have a huge load of personal dps but very little group synergy (+125 AP to all members of party within 40yd), whereas BM has high personal dps and good group synergy (+3% group damage done, not range-limited) and Survival has adequate personal dps but HIGH group synergy (+25% of your agility - buffs count - is given as attack power on your target for ALL raid members).
Personal dps is one thing, but if sacrificing personal dps leads to an overall increase in raid synergy and overall higher raid dps, then that spec might be the best option available.
Wouldn't scorch benefit
Agoney — Tue, 06/10/2008 - 13:30Wouldn't scorch benefit mages? I'm not too knowledgeable about mages, but always thought fire was the highest DPS spec.
Scorch benefits, but having
saedo — Tue, 06/10/2008 - 13:52Scorch benefits, but having only 1 fire mage at a time in raid diminishes any real synergy with anybody else.
Fire are the most highly sustainable dps spec. It would be the easiest spec to squeeze dps out of. Scorch and fireball are your only real tricks.
Frost is good, but usually a bit more for tricks, like survivability, and slowing effects. Also needs a bit of pet and CD management to get the most out of it.
Arcane is best for pure dps, but requires support. Shadow priests mainly. It also requires a bit of spell rotation adjustments depending on mana and such.
From what I've seen, fire
Katibug — Tue, 06/10/2008 - 15:45From what I've seen, fire mages are highest dps, they're always the first to go splat for some reason. I'm not very knowledgable in the mage field except that I love blowing things up on Sqwee.
There's been a similar
saedo — Tue, 06/10/2008 - 15:56There's been a similar argument that happened on rogue forums.
People insisting Subtle/Shadowstep/Cheat Death build is a viable raid spec. Sure it does less dps, but you can survive better. Dead dps is zero dps. That's true.
Counter-arguement to that. Learn to survive. If you can do high dps and survive to do it, you'll have high damage. It's an inevitable result if you can do both.
"Gimping" one to do the other is a compromise. A compromise that may not always be considered viable.
Well the diff between like fire and frost may not be as gimped compared to combat and subtlety. But if you wanna min-max even a little bit better is considered better....
WELCOME!!!
Katibug — Tue, 06/10/2008 - 09:25WELCOME!!!
Just some theorycraft I'm
Disrupter — Tue, 06/10/2008 - 10:34Just some theorycraft I'm going to write down for myself.
Mage to me is quite a fun class, though unlike classes like Hunter's/Shaman's/Warrior's/Warlock's they don't bring many amazing raid dps increases. (If we had fire locks instead of shadow locks, we would bring an amazing synergy but our locks are shadow so only 1 mage gets use of Scorch ;).
What they DO bring is Polymorph(Yay CC!),
Amplify/Dampen magic(Has it's own use on alot of bosses)
Improved Scorch, a 15% fire damage increase kept up by fire mages. (This generally only benefits one person, but if we start having "Fire" locks it'll benefit more.
Winterschill, a 10% crit to Frostbolt/Waterbolt. (Generally only benefits the frost mage, but it also benefits Arcane mages that are throwing frostbolts to insure not ooming.)
Then there is the various snaring/slowing ability mages get that are sometimes useful on certain fights, like, frost nova for Illidan's parasites ;).
Theorycraft Continued! Each
Disrupter — Tue, 06/10/2008 - 15:29Theorycraft Continued!
Each mage spec has it's own advantages for certain scenarios.
Arcane / Icey Veins 50/0/11
This is an Arcane Blast/Arcane Missiles spamming spec. Traditional arcane, it's a very high dps and mana intensive spec, generally best for shorter fights and pretty much requries a shadow priest to do it's optimal DPS.
Arcane / Cold Snap 40/0/21
This is pretty much my favorite spec for raiding, Assuming you get a shadow as this spec, when you are low on mana and have no Mana Gem CD or Super Mana Pot CD you can spam Frostbolt while you wait for a cd so you can get right back to spamming arcane blast. This gets a little boost from having a frost mage with winters chill in raid.
"Raid" Frost 18/0/43
This spec gives up every ability that frost shines at in solo grinding. Shatter, improved blizzard, etc. It picks up Magic Attunment for an improved version of AMP/DAMP magic, and Arcane Meditation for more mana regen instead.
"Semi-Raid" Frost 10/0/50
This is the same dps as the prior spec, except it gives up the mana regen and magic attunement for shattery goodness. Shatter in some scenarios will up my dps, so it's kind of tough to decide to get it or not. When farming consumables those 5 talents can turn a 6-8 second fight into a 2.2 second fight, or even faster.
Aoe/Fire 2/48/11
This is a more aoe oriented spec, the threat reduction is very useful for Hyjal and other AoE oriented situations. It's basically raid fire with 2 points thrown into arcane subtlety ;).
Fire/Cold Snap 0/40/21
This is a newer spec, I've yet to try. From what I've heard and read this spec is basically designed so that you can have 1 or 2 icy veins during a heroism with a flame cap/destro pot/trinket as well :).
So a little recap on these specs:
Arcane massive dps on shorter fights, gets better as yours AND your spriests gear excels.
Frost comparable dps to fire, high survivability and mana efficiency.
Fire good single target dps, a minor lack in OH SHIT abilities, and requires that you live to see the last 20% of the boss to show your real dps ;).
Test reply, testing if I can
Disrupter — Tue, 06/10/2008 - 00:13Test reply, testing if I can edit this :X.
And yes, yes I can :D.