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To the Ground Baby

Dragon's picture

Dragon — Sun, 11/02/2008 - 11:25

Disclaimer: If you are sick of reading about paladin nerfs then stop reading right here and save your anger.

Ok now with that out of the way I will be getting into the meat of this post. Please understand that I love my paladin and the class as a whole. I've come to realize this over the years as I have played my paladin.

Throughout time Paladins have gotten progressively better, I will not argue this point because it is true. When you ask therefore what all the recent QQ about paladin nerfs in guild chat has been about its quite simple.

The title of this Blog was that just 2 weeks ago at Blizzcon, Ghostcrawler and Kalgan were asked what they currently thought about Ret. Ghostcrawler responded at first with "Into the Ground" and then a few pulses later said "Don't Nerf Me, Bro" in a manner similar to the University of Florida student last year. Finally Kalgan and Ghostcrawler agreed that Ret was currently where they wanted it to be. Note that the patch woud hit 3 days later, and the nerfs would start. Ghostcrawlers foreshadowing has begun to bite him in the ass.

The first and most obvious problem has been that MOST of the nerfs have been applied in hotfixes where at most we get a few hours notice (see last night with Avenging Wrath). I never even got to play with Divine Storm as holy damage on live, due to our server taking nearly the entire day to come up. So by the time I logged on the next day it had already been reduced, nor was I able to play with 10 second repetence in pvp.

Then we go to the ability Avenging Wrath which now every paladin had actually been using. This went from a spell you would only see in WSG zerg fests after the zerking buff to pick up or a tank getting initial aggro in pve to something that was seen often. First of all the ability was buffed, moved from +30% damage for 20 seconds to +20% damage/healing for 20 seconds. On top of that they away the spells ability to trigger forbearance, thus allowing all 3 specs of paladins to use it without having to worry about losing their defensive capability. So tanks could spam it when it was off cooldown for more threat, holy could spam it every cooldown for more healing, ret could spam it off cooldown for more damage.  Now again it causes forbearance like it did before. But instead of having forbearance for 1 minute like we did pre3.0 we have it for 2 minutes. So that is 2 minutes now after its used before your tank can blow shield wall (See Divine Protection) if he needs too, or its 2 minutes until your holy paladin can stand in a fire for Archimonde. For ret, it means they will probably never be able to bubble on a boss fight since we are able to reduce the cooldown for our Avenging Wrath to 2 minutes and while its up at least for now we ignore 50% of all damage reducing mechanics.

So this ability that was nerfed because of its PvP uses has now once again crippled PvE. And about PvE lets get more into how these nerfs affect that. When patch 3.0 comes out, protection is suffering yet another nerf as blizzard is reducing the damage and coefficients on EVERY seal and judgement other than Blood/Martyr. So therefore your tank will be doing less threat. Oh and your holy pally will be even less likely to spec holy, or at least to farm as their own soloing ability is disappearing.

Now I will move to say that Retribution was overpowered in the fact that we had been given so much +Critical Damage in our trees in 3.0. Crusader Strike was critting at 235% damage while Judgement and Divine Storm were critting at 245% damage. If our burst is really the problem why don't they just implement the nerfs to these 2 talents already. Both of these look to be a possible buff to pve damage but they are still on beta.

Which is another thing that drives me nuts, they are implementing more hotfixes (see Judgement of the Wise) without at times even having them touch beta. In fact Live has become the beta recently for all these changes. And while I am on Judgement of the Wise about this nerf. 15% of base mana on this ability really is gonna sting as paladins level where as the testing they want right now they can't get. WHY because ret paladins still have intellect on their gear be it from PvP gear or PvE gear. This in turn affects replenishment mana regen and Judgement of Wisdom mana regen (which is also being nerfed to 1% base mana from 2% of base mana and half the chance to proc). Therefore all this testing they want us to do we can't simply due to other items in game atm which we have no control over. BTW, the same people testing this on beta have us oom in a raid setting at 80 just using Seal, Judge, Crusader Strike and Divine Storm at about 4 minutes if you use Divine Plea (Lvl 71) every time this is up. Which means our damage gets nerfed again as we can't use Consecrate (long a staple of retribution damage) or Hammer of Wrath. Now I know "But, Dragon, you have Seal of Emo so you can use those abilities in pve," and while this is true, it means that we have to be healed in order to maximize our damage. But unlike warlocks and shadowpriests, we don't really get to pick when this damage occurs. Shadow Word: Death the Shadowpriest has a choice whether or not to press. Same for a Warlock's Life Tap. Ours is just always up, always taking damage on every swing. As far as the reaching side effects for pvp in this, 1 viper sting/mana burn/mana drain and we are useless. On top of this, with all spells being base mana now, it greatly limits the amount of Hand Spells or Heals we can toss in either PvE or PvP.

Finally there is also talk recently of Judgement of Justice being reduced to 10 seconds and that Sanctified Wrath will no longer give the ability to ignore damage reducing effects while Avenging Wrath is active. So we have 1 PvE nerf in the Sanc Wrath change and then 2 major pvp nerfs.

In conclusion, it feels that Blizzard just keeps shooting from their hips at the moment with their nerfs. Many of these are having far reaching effects into the land of PvE and to all parts of the class. We have yet to have the ability to test these in places other than live, and most of the paladin community cannot test all the changes at once since so few are actually in beta. Fewer now log into beta as we were all tryin to get our toons ready for Wrath. I would like to believe I can stay with both my paladins in Wrath, but with Blizzard's Knee Jerk, Shoot-From-The-Hip responses to the general outcry of the public, I am left wondering what they are gonna hit next. Meanwhile, all the other classes that people are complaining about, Mutilate Rogue/Mages, get with all their damage intact.

/EndRant

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garreth's picture

Keep it civil, boys or

garreth — Tue, 11/04/2008 - 14:32

Keep it civil, boys or everyone gets spankins.

Adwarflol's picture

I don't like JoW nerft,

Adwarflol — Tue, 11/04/2008 - 17:47

I don't like JoW nerft, I might actually have to use something to restore mana on my hunter D:

I can't say I didn't see it comming, also nerf arcane mages they totally BBQ me in pvp D;

Dragon's picture

Not as Crabby @ Ghostcrawler

Dragon — Tue, 11/04/2008 - 07:48

And then the Crab came and posted on the Forums last news to the fanatical loyal ret paladins (http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=12065191999&sid=1&...)

The crowds anger was abated for a moment as the words took time to register and paladins yet again looked forward in hope for the future.

Or at least the ret ones did >.>

garreth's picture

That is an EXCELLENT solution

garreth — Tue, 11/04/2008 - 10:14

That is an EXCELLENT solution that GC explains there.  It's elegant and helps fix the "Unstoppable, Invincible, Too-Powerful" issue that EVERYONE (including most ret paladins) had with "Wings + Bubble".

As a matter of fact, every single time I've been attacked by a ret paladin in the last week (about a dozen times or so, yay isle dailies) the absolute FIRST thing every single one of them did was Wings+Bubble.  That's a sign that maybe its' a gimmick that needs to be adjusted.

Looks like Blizz is moving more toward "mutually exclusive" wings and divine shield.  This is good.

Dragon's picture

Yes the Mutually Exclusive

Dragon — Tue, 11/04/2008 - 10:18

Yes the Mutually Exclusive solution is the one I've read on all the Official Forums and the 2 fan based forums I visit as the best means for solving the problem. Similar to stopping the old double damage trinkets at the start of TBC.

Fjork's picture

http://tankadinaddon.com/imag

Fjork — Mon, 11/03/2008 - 13:51

http://tankadinaddon.com/images/AchievementSig_v1.gif 

Vulk's picture

Title: Power Ranger

Vulk — Tue, 11/04/2008 - 09:34

Title: Power Ranger

YEAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

Dufe's picture

Balance

Dufe — Mon, 11/03/2008 - 12:40

Keep in mind that all of the tuning taking place is aimed mostly at lvl 80.  Some classes/spec will scale better than others and/or pick up new dps enhancing abilities.  Trying to make sense of it using lvl 70 data will probably just be a waste of time for the most part, imo.  Based on the WWS numbers I'm seeing at 70 though, let's hope mages and locks are among the classes that will scale better.  Any pure dps class being so low is just silly.

Dragon's picture

There are paladins in beta

Dragon — Mon, 11/03/2008 - 13:04

There are paladins in beta trying to tune for 80. At 80 our burst in pvp put us in about middle of the pack when it came to the blue gear. Same thing most paladins noticed who played in beta. Thats the other reason for the outrage.

Agoney's picture

PvP ret needed the nerf. No

Agoney — Mon, 11/03/2008 - 10:57

PvP ret needed the nerf. No debate, maybe a little too far, but time will tell. The problem is with how they approached it. PvE ret gets shafted which wasn't needed. They weren't op and weren't top DPS (which, they shouldnt be). Holy/Prot was also affected by this which is kinda uncalled for.

However, if it makes you feel any better, Shadow is still the lowest PvE hybrid spec next to any shaman spec.

Fjork's picture

I gotta slightly disagree on

Fjork — Mon, 11/03/2008 - 11:16

I gotta slightly disagree on the pve ret.  They 'were' unbalanced, even as late as yesterday after the Forebearance nerf.

I went with Ensid, Holy, and a few others on a ZA run with one other retadin.  My damage meters indicated I was #2 on overall damage done and the other retadin was #4.  That was understandable for me b/c of the gearset I was sporting and the fact that I got Trollsbane during the run giving me a significant boost.  The other retadin however was sporting serious crap for gear.  I doubt pre-3.0.2 he would have been allowed on a KZ run.  I understand the bosses were all nerfed, but in gear that bad he shouldn't have been so enormously higher than the mages, the lock, etc.  Though it was amusing that even in Tanking gear Sid was #6 in damage done.  lol.

Now, end-game wise (aka, BT/Sunwell) its possible that the retadins were balanced enough, in which case retadins just got a boost towards allowing them into raiding early (such as spriests, dranaei ele shammies had on +spell hit pre-3.0.2).  That would be dforks field.

For myself though considering the blues/greens I was wearing, I have to agree that (at least in early pve raiding) retadins were srs OP.  I shouldn't have been in the #2 dps spot, even if I geared so much for crit/str that I'm sitting around 35-50ish% crit for my yellows(Only six epics, the rest blues/greens).   Especially since on the Hex-Lord fight (the non-wipe) I spent almost as much time healing as I did doing dps.

Now, all of that said.  It was MY damage meters, so its possible the locks, mages, etc were to far away on parts, etc, etc.  I would give alot to see the parses from yesterdays ZA if anybody took them.

garreth's picture

To answer your question, Ped,

garreth — Mon, 11/03/2008 - 11:24

To answer your question, Ped, here's the KJ kill that Dragon was on: http://wowwebstats.com/w3bkryoc3couw?s=548124-595197

That's a great indicator of the hardest, most technical, most dps-race, most "skill-based" fight in the entire game.  Melee gets good time on boss and range gets good time on boss.

You can see Dragon at 5th overall output and 7th at average dps.  Now, there are adds involved in this fight so he may not have been switching off as much as the other melee.  Regardless, those are good spots to be as a ret pally.  I think that's just fine in PvE, at the level of gearing as the rest of the raid.

So, in summary, I like(d) where ret was at in PvE.  Let's hope that this eases out over the next 10 levels.

Dragon's picture

Truth, I never left the boss.

Dragon — Mon, 11/03/2008 - 11:27

Truth, I never left the boss.

That being said, WWS/Recount etc are all believed to include Seal of Emo's backlash damage to the paladin as part of the paladins overall damage. Just something to note in the future as I had forgotten I had switched to command for that attempt.

garreth's picture

Dragon, I'm assuming the log

garreth — Mon, 11/03/2008 - 11:31

Dragon, I'm assuming the log looks like "Dragonforks' Seal of Emo hits Dragonfork for X damage" right?  Hmm, are we going to have to subtract that out manually from here on out?

saedo's picture

Ah wait it was on

saedo — Mon, 11/03/2008 - 11:59

Ah wait it was on Brutallus:   http://wowwebstats.com/w3bkryoc3couw?a=xd7d003&s=126215-154787#break

saedo's picture

If that was in the log then

saedo — Mon, 11/03/2008 - 11:42

If that was in the log then you would see Dragonspear hitting Dragonspear in the breakdowns:  http://wowwebstats.com/w3bkryoc3couw?s=548124-595197&a=xd7d003#break

(Hint:  Look at Dmg In)

Fork sucked on Brutallus though, the melee friendly 100% on his demon ass fight:  http://wowwebstats.com/w3bkryoc3couw?s=126215-154787&m

Dragon's picture

I think so but if someone can

Dragon — Mon, 11/03/2008 - 11:37

I think so but if someone can remind me when I am in game later tonight I will be sure to get the exact look of it.

garreth's picture

Yarr, no contest that ret

garreth — Mon, 11/03/2008 - 11:05

Yarr, no contest that ret needed to be adjusted in PvP.  I think Dragon had the suggestion for Wings ovewriting Bubble or visa versa.  Being invincible while being able to two-shot any clothie is 100% OP and all paladins agree on that.  It's just that instead of the "elegant" fix of a mutually exclusive Wings or Bubble, they just went BAM! 20-50% reduction in judgement damage.

Dragon's picture

It was not my suggestion,

Dragon — Mon, 11/03/2008 - 11:10

It was not my suggestion, although I do agree with it. I am not for certain Garreth but I don't think they are done reducing the seal/judgement damage yet as so far as I know they only implemented the Command Nerf.

And then the Avenging Wrath causing forbearance again ...

And Repetence...

And Divine Storm...

And JotW.

Fjork's picture

Wait, what?  What's the

Fjork — Mon, 11/03/2008 - 11:17

Wait, what?  What's the command nerf?

/sigh 

My poor damage spreadsheet.  It's so hard to figure the best upgrades using my spreadsheet when I have to keep going back and changing all of the numbers.........

Dragon's picture

Beta Build 9136 (Command was the only one Hotfixed in)

Dragon — Mon, 11/03/2008 - 11:24

Paladin (9138: Skills | Talents)
Holy

  • Seal of Righteousness - Damage down to [MWS * 0.022 * AP + 0.044 * SPH] from [MWS * 0.028 * AP + 0.055 * SPH].
  • Seal of Light - Down to [0.15 * AP + 0.15 * SPH] from [0.28 * AP + 0.28 * SPH]. Damage down to [1.0 + 0.25 * SPH + 0.16 * AP] from [1.0 + 0.32 * SPH + 0.2 * AP].
  • Seal of Wisdom - Damage down to [1.0 + 0.32 * SPH + 0.2 * AP] from [1.0 + 0.25 * SPH + 0.16 * AP].
  • Seal of Righteousness -

Protection

  • Seal of Justice - Proc damage reduced to [1.0 + 0.25 * SPH + 0.16 * AP] from [1.0 + 0.32 * SPH + 0.2 * AP]. Judgement damage reduced to [0.24 * mw + 0.16 * AP + 0.25 * SPH] to [0.24 * MW + 0.16 * AP + 0.25 * SPH] from [0.3 * mw + 0.2 * AP + 0.32 * SPH] to [0.3 * MW + 0.2 * AP + 0.32 * SPH].

Retribution

  • Judgement of Light - Reduced to [0.1 * SPH + 0.1 * AP] from [0.18 * SPH + 0.18 * AP].
  • Seal of Command - Damage reduced to [0.45 * mw] to [0.45 * MW] from [0.56 * mw] to [0.56 * MW].
  • Seal of Vengeance - Damage reduced to [0.013 * SPH + 0.025 * AP * 6.0] from [0.016 * SPH + 0.032 * AP * 6.0]. Judgment damage reduced to [1.0 + 0.22 * SPH + 0.14 * AP] from [1.0 + 0.28 * SPH + 0.175 * AP].
  • Judgements of the Wise - Now only grants you 15% of your base mana. Down from 33%.
  • Seal of Blood - Damage down to [0.22 * MW] from [0.28 * MW]. Judgement damage down to [0.36 * mw + 0.16 * AP + 0.25 * SPH] to [0.36 * MW + 0.16 * AP + 0.25 * SPH] from [0.45 * mw + 0.2 * AP + 0.32 * SPH] to [0.45 * MW + 0.2 * AP + 0.32 * SPH].
  • Righteous Vengeance - Changed to When your Judgement and Divine Storm spells deal a critical strike, your target will take 8/16/24/32/40% additional damage over 8 sec from Increases critical damage bonus of your Judgement and Divine Storm spells by 5/10/15/20/25%.
  • Divine Storm - No longer does holy damage. Now heals for 25% of the damage caused, up from 20%.
  • Judgement of Wisdom - Now only restores 1% of max mana, down from 2%.
  • The Art of War - Now increases the damage of your Judgement, Crusader Strike and Divine Storm abilities by 5/10% instead of 10/20% critical strike damage.
  • Seal of the Martyr - Down to 28% damage from 22%.
  • Seal of Corruption - Damage down to [0.013 * SPH + 0.025 * AP * 6.0] from [0.016 * SPH + 0.032 * AP * 6.0]. Judgement damage down to [1.0 + 0.22 * SPH + 0.14 * AP] from [1.0 + 0.28 * SPH + 0.175 * AP].

 

Infomation copied from http://www.worldofraids.com/news/344.html

garreth's picture

Fuck yeah! The new copy-paste

garreth — Mon, 11/03/2008 - 11:27

Fuck yeah! The new copy-paste feature works great! Look at that formatting!

Dragon's picture

ya G it does seem to have

Dragon — Mon, 11/03/2008 - 11:29

ya G it does seem to have copied over nicely :D

garreth's picture

Dragon, I'm very with you on

garreth — Mon, 11/03/2008 - 10:28

Dragon, I'm very with you on this one: 

They went too far.

The nerf to judgement damage was pretty silly.  I'm now judging for almost half of what I was pre-3.0.  With Seal of Righteousness up and judging Wisdom I now non-crit for 600.  Pre-3.0 i was non-crit judging for about 1k.  Pre-nerf 3.0 I was non-critting for about 1.2.

As a Holy pally I was exstatic that I had a reliable, ranged offensive spell to keep from being insta-nuked by chain-fearing locks and counterspelling mages.  As Holy, I wasn't two-shotting anyone and I was rather enjoying my time being able to finally solo-grind with some efficiency.  

This blanket judgement nerf hit the Holy pallys the hardest, I think.  Yes, Command needed a bit of a tweak.  But Righteousness? C'mon!!!

I think the WoWInsider guys have it right on: http://www.wowinsider.com/2008/11/01/the-light-and-how-to-swing-it-uncle/

Dragon's picture

I read that over the weekend

Dragon — Mon, 11/03/2008 - 11:02

I read that over the weekend Garreth and is what prompted me for my post here

Aidin's picture

Step 1 : Scroll to check

Aidin — Mon, 11/03/2008 - 10:12

Step 1 : Scroll to check length

Step 2: ?

Step 3: PROFIT! (no I didn't read it..I'm with Jorence..ty for disclaimer)

Septima's picture

thank you for the disclaimer!

Septima — Mon, 11/03/2008 - 04:19

thank you for the disclaimer! :D

Dragon's picture

np

Dragon — Mon, 11/03/2008 - 06:04

np

Adwarflol's picture

Could you please summarize

Adwarflol — Mon, 11/03/2008 - 06:51

Could you please summarize <__< reading r hard.

Josalin's picture

I believe he said "QQ QQ QQ

Josalin — Mon, 11/03/2008 - 06:56

I believe he said "QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ qq QQ qqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqQQqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqq."

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