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Subtlety: Finding the Pathway to Success!

Noctis Umbra — Sun, 04/26/2009 - 23:08

Character Info
Name: 
Stabwitbeard
Server: 
Gorgonnash
Race: 
Gnome
Class: 
Rogue
Role: 
DPS
General Questions
Which days are you available for organized guild events? (Raids, RBGs, etc): 
Monday
Tuesday
Wednesday
Thursday
Sunday
UI
Upload UI: 
Which addons do you consider essential and why?: 
mods are fine i personally use a few. Although the only really raid related mod I use at the moment is recount for combat statistic tracking.
PvE
Raid Experience: 
To be honest, I have not done too much before WotLK. I only entered Karazhan and made it as far as Illhoof. I was always a more pvp oriented rogue during the days of BC when i utilized a Shadowstep daggers build which at the time was not even remotely viable for pve.
Personal
What timezone are you in?: 
Washington
Tell us a little about yourself.: 
hmm im terrible at this: we will leave it at good sense of humor, hard working, and i dunno why dont you ask me questions and I can TELL you the answers lol.
Open/Closed: 
Closed

supa sexy

everstar — Mon, 04/27/2009 - 11:33

supa sexy

^^^So full of win

Felsteel — Mon, 04/27/2009 - 11:31

^^^So full of win

garreth's picture

I think that's a Dodge

garreth — Mon, 04/27/2009 - 11:29

I think that's a Dodge Dynasty.

Shihli's picture

In the words of ...

Shihli — Mon, 04/27/2009 - 09:15

In the words of ... someone.

"Just because it's unique, doesn't make it necessarily good or useful."

Cookie-cutter specs are cookie-cutter because they work.

So it comes down to...

Noctis Umbra — Mon, 04/27/2009 - 11:53

"You are not a beautiful or unique snowflake." Does my desire to actually complete a raid which seems impossilbe to accomplish in my current guild outweigh the need to play my character in a manner I choose? I think that's the underlying question. One that I do not have an answer for at the moment.

bluetouguyss's picture

1)You are applying to

bluetouguyss — Mon, 04/27/2009 - 12:27

1)You are applying to downfall!  This is not just some run of the mill guild!   Bring your A game, take criticism because they only want to make you better and know your role! 

2)Go to elitistjerks website!  It has so much info you could read for a week straight and still learn something new.  When I switched specs from Feral to Boomkin I went there and learned  a ton even before I switched specs.  Then I talked to some of the top boomkins in our guild and others and got some info from them.  Next was just trial and error.  Am I the best boomkin in our guild?  No but I am usually near the top of the meters and I am a weekend warrior I dont get a lot of raid time or let alone game time during the week. 

3)Sign up for guild runs.  Torvo's EP1 runs are a great place for apps to get seen and noticed (see jimi's app).  Also many afternoons if you are in dfrecruit we are running guys through heroics if interested.  That is another way to get noticed and get some gear and shards if you run with me ;) (enchanter FTW) 

4) Seriously if you want in this guild you need to learn a little humility.  These guys are giving you crap and thats just what they do but being in DF is great and the people are awesome when it comes to their knowledge and their helpfulness. We have a great little community here in DF and if you want to be a part of it do these things and you will be just fine.

Shihli's picture

I'll lay it out somewhat

Shihli — Mon, 04/27/2009 - 12:04

I'll lay it out somewhat bluntly, nothing personal.

Having a "unique spec" that "works for me" is all fine and dandy when you play by yourself.  When you're in a raid, you - as a rogue - have only one responsibility and role, and that's to do as much damage as possible.

If your unique spec can match the dps output of the generally-regarded top dps specs, then that's a bonus.  More often than not, they don't.  Suffice to say, a "unique, personal favorite spec" doesn't do you any favors in the face of the reduced damage you'll deal.

As an example, imagine applying for a job at a French bakery.  They expect you to be able to make traditional French pastries and baguettes.  When you apply, you tell them you make them "your own unique way" and that they are guaranteed to taste good.

That's all fine and dandy, but if they are looking for traditional French baking, your "unique" approach isn't going to cut it.

Now then, some people in our raids may not have perfectly optimized specs.  By and large this is because we've raided with them for over 4 years (in other cases, over 2), we know them personally, and we know they bring more to a raid than just their dps - they bring consumables for everyone else, or they know more about strats and such.

You're just applying.  You don't come with that benefit.  So your best bet is to impress us by your working knowledge of your class (which, based on comments, is lacking based on your wonky spec), your drive to excel and maximize your character (which your gemming and your not-capped professions do not indicate), and overall your ability to rise to the occasion.

Thus far it sounds like you haven't met most of those criteria.

moriella's picture

Unique Flowers

moriella — Mon, 04/27/2009 - 09:17

 

This is hard to manage in a simple heroics but easier to manage with 10 mans and even more so with the 25 mans.Coordination and group structure is key to optimizing my damage output but I believe the potential is there.

How do you know this? From your armory, you have almost no experience in 10s or 25s

While I certainly approve of players thinking for themselves and trying alternative builds - there needs to be math and theory to back it up. Deciding on a build just because it 'fits your playstyle' = BAD.

My guess is, with your PvP interests, you just want in a guild who can kill Emalon - as you have almost zero raid experience and didnt even manage to clear more than one wing of Naxx.

Do some research, learn what a spreadsheet is, learn to play, break 4k dps

Currently, I doubt you do more DPS than our tanks.

That may be the case.

Noctis Umbra — Mon, 04/27/2009 - 11:19

That may be the case. However, I do have some experience on my dk in 25 mans and know the variety of class combinations that can be in one. So i am saying it should not be too difficult to put my rogue into the correct raid group. I have a fairly good idea of the group make up thats a little more optimal for my rogue based on doing the same heroics day after day and having different classes each day.. As far as experience in 25 mans on my rogue, well I have not had a group to do it with.I've done OS 25 a couple times but that's about it.

Katibug's picture

Stock UI is very stock.

Katibug — Mon, 04/27/2009 - 08:09

Stock UI is very stock.

saedo's picture

test

saedo — Mon, 04/27/2009 - 02:30

So let me get this straight.

You're spec'ing HaT (well your version of it) cause you heard it can be good and have a general hard on for Ambush.   You want a chance to prove your unique non-cookie cutter spec doesn't suck balls, and would not like it if we told you to spec out of what you "think" is good.   

Yes, the knowledge and experience of thousands of rogues to determine optimal specs so that the majority can simply copy them as cookie-cutter specs, must be wrong.

Well, gear wise, mostly blues, cheap gems, few enchants.

Professions, well guess those are good for pvp, though both are still at pretty low skill levels.

UI wise, only see recount and fubar stuff, definitely nothing interesting.

 

hmm

Noctis Umbra — Mon, 04/27/2009 - 04:39

Yes, mostly blues. That is the reason for the cheap gems and enchants. As far as engineering there are a few nifty items and time savers such as a field repair bot which decreases on time spent waiting for people to get to a repair and summoning them back. As far as the add-ons what more does a rogue really need? what would be the point? the built in threat meter that blizzard added is good enough to know when I should use tricks or feint. other mods such as dbm announces to the party for some things. at the point of the screen shot there was no point in having something set as focus (which is part of the standard ui.) And yes my spec may not be what's proven "best" but whose to say it does not turn out great? Show me a damage meter with two rogues one the "best" and one with a spec like mine about equally geared and if it is a significant difference then maybe I should not use the spec. Until then why would i not be allowed to use the spec I want? As far as unique for all i know the spec i am using is out there somewhere. I asked a couple questions about honor among thieves but no real research and figured I'd give it a try and saw significant improvement. It seems to fit my playstyle. If i were forced to a spec it could easily end up being worse if all I was thinking during the raid was how much I hated it. However, it is true that the talent itself is really dependend on the other four people in my specific raid group, The talent works optimally when other classes with fast and high crit chance are in my raid group. This is hard to manage in a simple heroics but easier to manage with 10 mans and even more so with the 25 mans.Coordination and group structure is key to optimizing my damage output but I believe the potential is there.

Fjork's picture

So to review.....

Fjork — Mon, 04/27/2009 - 11:02

Yes, mostly blues. That is the reason for the cheap gems and enchants.

I personally have no issues with this. I stayed in cheap gear and cheap enchants till I had gear with enchanting.

As far as engineering there are a few nifty items and time savers such as a field repair bot which decreases on time spent waiting for people to get to a repair and summoning them back.

I am not a rouge, but I will tell you that optimally you should be taking one of the professions that boosts your crit, or agility. Something that specifically benefits your class / spec. For example, engineering provides some of the best tanking / healing head items in the game early-on, so I would actually leave that profession to those who will most utilize the benefits from it. Tanks get health from mining, etc, etc.

As far as the add-ons what more does a rogue really need? what would be the point? the built in threat meter that blizzard added is good enough to know when I should use tricks or feint. other mods such as dbm announces to the party for some things. at the point of the screen shot there was no point in having something set as focus (which is part of the standard ui.)

I'll cut you off right there before the rest of the guild gets a-hold of you. The point is taking the most advantage of the available tools for you to optimize your play performance most effectively in the face of lag, conflicting debuffs on bosses, cooldowns, and resistances. The other point is also Raid-Unity. If you don't have Omen, your tanks / healers don't know where you are. You think you'll get a Hand of Salvation? If you don't have BigWigs, you might miss that one crucial raid-announcement that would have prevented a wipe.

I'm not the one to bash over this or that mod, but if you are given a good faith recommendation, the words what is the point are basically a slap in the face, and to be frank I believe an apology is in order.

And yes my spec may not be what's proven "best" but whose to say it does not turn out great? Show me a damage meter with two rogues one the "best" and one with a spec like mine about equally geared and if it is a significant difference then maybe I should not use the spec. Until then why would i not be allowed to use the spec I want? As far as unique for all i know the spec i am using is out there somewhere. I asked a couple questions about honor among thieves but no real research and figured I'd give it a try and saw significant improvement. It seems to fit my playstyle. If i were forced to a spec it could easily end up being worse if all I was thinking during the raid was how much I hated it. However, it is true that the talent itself is really dependend on the other four people in my specific raid group, The talent works optimally when other classes with fast and high crit chance are in my raid group. This is hard to manage in a simple heroics but easier to manage with 10 mans and even more so with the 25 mans.Coordination and group structure is key to optimizing my damage output but I believe the potential is there.

I'll leave this one alone, because simply I'm in NO way knowledgeable about Rogues. However, your spec also is a great influence on either A) your ability to copy or B) your lack of knowledge concerning your own class. At least A) gets you a little credit based on research. B) doesn't. If you can support your spec, and saedo agrees, cool beans! Keep in mind however that the reason we have very few rogues is because we have very high standards for them. Jimi looks like a good call because of a willingness to take constructive criticism, think on it, and reply rationally. Are you going to look like a good call, or a waste of bandwidth?

 

 

And with that! I say "Good luck". All of my statements are meant heartfelt. I wasn't trying to upset you or shy you away from your application. I am recommending however that you give slightly more credit where credit is due.

Thank you

Noctis Umbra — Mon, 04/27/2009 - 11:37

Thank you. I am willing to utilize new mods and have even already downloaded Downfall's mod packacge. I have actually used Omen before and was planning on getting it again anyway since I have developed a small interest in taking with my dk eventually. To be honest while i was alot newer at hte game I asked several times (in trade which is the issue) about rogue mods and plenty times I heard "None worth usnig" To tell you the truth I have in no way copied or even looked at talent specs for my rogue.. I have plenty of discussions about rogues and pve with a coworker during BC. I understand the concept of combat rogues whose primary damage is from white damage which uses weapons such as swords or fists with higher top end damage, sinister srikes, and wound poison. O rmutilate rogues thatI have seen whose top damage abilites are melee, mutilate and instant poison. My spec the damage comes from eviscerate, melee, and backstabs.

jaibyrd's picture

http://elitistjerks.com/   H

jaibyrd — Mon, 04/27/2009 - 19:51

http://elitistjerks.com/

 

Hi Friend of Ray!! :-)

 

Go to that site and look stuff up. I'm not a rogue, but I'm pretty sure it does for rogues what it does for priests.  This is where lots of people here in Downfall get their info about their classes.

 

And good luck with your app.

saedo's picture

reserved for javascripting

saedo — Mon, 04/27/2009 - 10:41

Blues I can understand.   But they were in epics too.  There's not a single good gem in any of your gear.

Repair bots are mostly overrated.    Nowadays, there are repair vendors very close by, and the ability to mount onto a Traveller's.      But saying this as your reason tells me one thing.    You're not interested dps, the sole reason a rogue exists.   You didn't even tell me about the dps benefits Eng brings, yes there are a few, not the optimal ones, but they exist    And even then, your skills in MINING AND ENG ARE VERY LOW.   You're can't even drop repair bots, the one "utility" you supposedly bring with those profs, that was more of the point than your choices in.

As for UI, what more can a rogue need....   Hmmmmmm....    Do you enjoy periodically looking at the top right corner of your screen?   Then periodically shift your eyes to the top left corner of the screen?   Then all the while keeping out of the fire that just spawned underneath your feet at the middle of your screen, while lasers chase you on the right side of the screen, with mines to be avoided being thrown out on the bottom left of the screen?   Can you react instantly to raid warnings?   And I mean instantly.    Opposed to having a timer and mindset to prepare for what's coming ahead.

Wow, so you only heard HaT was good, asked a couple of questions, did no research, and made the rest up yourself?    What makes you a foremost expert on it?   You think the thousands of rogues that have already done the research, that have already mathematically and statistically (and some anedotally) figured out how much each talent is worth means absolutely nothing?

Sure spec the way you want.  Play the way you want.   Don't expect anyone to just let you in when the bar is set far higher than that.

Yes HaT is group dependent.   It quite actually can be the best in 25 man as long as you tailor everything for the rogue.   8K dps go!    When I saw that you wrote you were HaT, I was honestly hoping for someone who knew what they were talking about.   Clearly that's not the case and you're just blindly on some bandwagon.    Your spec is not *the* HaT spec that can dominate.  

alright man

Noctis Umbra — Mon, 04/27/2009 - 12:17

Alright. I just wanna know when I ever calimed to be this "expert" that you mentioned. Have I? No, I have not.

As far as the mods go, howver, hook it up. Recommend the rogue mods to me and I shall go download them right now. i mean i can easily google rogue mods but they may not be the right ones. Let me know man.

What dps would you expect in my current gear assuming I was one of the tried and true specs?

As far as my professions to be honest there really is not too much for a rogue with engineering to contribute to the raid with this profession. A few self only item enhancements and mining gives hp but not supe rnecessary for a raiding rogue. All in all yes my professions were picked more twoards just seeming like fun choice and less a "raider's" choice. A little more useful for pvp rogues as well.

saedo's picture

You imply that by boldly

saedo — Mon, 04/27/2009 - 12:33

You imply that by boldly claiming that you could be as good as any of the cookie cutter specs (equal gear etc), but have absolutely nothing to back that up except your own opinion.   That either makes you a foremost expert, or a complete bullshitter.

Mods are more of a personal touch.   Like that car analogy I suppose, even if you're not into them or anything, not that I'm an expert or anything either, there are many ways to customize it to suit your particular needs, tastes, or deficiencies.

So let's see...   Timer mods I suppose we can start there.   Pick one of these, ClassTimers, NeedToKnow, EventHorizon.   Frames, I'd say XPerl or Pitbull.   Bars will probably be Bartender.   Boss mods would be DeadlyBossMods or BigWigs.   Start looking into those, there's more out there.

In your current gear what dps I'd expect...    Depends, assuming you mean a cookie-cutter HaT?    Um, 3-3.5K dps in a perfect group setup.     What are you doing now in your 10 mans?      1.8-2.2K?

Yes there are a few item enhancements, same with any other professions.   Good craftable gear is BoE, so no longer a relevant prof bonus.   Everyone gets 1 particular prof-only bonus for them.   This was more to see if you understood the differences.

Combopoint redux allows you

Felsteel — Mon, 04/27/2009 - 13:10

Combopoint redux allows you to position your CP(remove them from the target UF) and resize them, give them a diff color and so on. Mine are yellow till I hit 5cp then they become a bright red. Its just a pref but it lets me keep track of my CPs a lot better, so I am more awear of them during those dicey moments and when I happen to be looking at other timers.

saedo's picture

I use IceHuD for those

saedo — Mon, 04/27/2009 - 13:17

I use IceHuD for those things.   Center screen info on combo points and energy.

You have a SS? I would like

Felsteel — Mon, 04/27/2009 - 13:20

You have a SS? I would like to see how it looks, im at work and it will be hours before i get home and can see it.

saedo's picture

Well this was like a few

saedo — Mon, 04/27/2009 - 13:45

Well this was like a few weeks ago /image/view/5897/_original

Pretty much the same now with a bit of movement tweaks.   Not shown are Quartz, I have the target's castbar right above my HuD.   DeadlyBossMod timers are right above that.   So for me, I try to keep my info centralized.   Leaving the sides clear, no black boxes blotting out entire sections of the screen.

Oh yea I also use Auracle now for buff/debuff tracking, I should probably post a new one later for that stuff.

what is your tricks macro,

Felsteel — Mon, 04/27/2009 - 14:14

what is your tricks macro, and what are the buttons underneath your trinks. Also the timer for your Snd and so forth, that is the event horizon correct?

saedo's picture

I have to log in to be sure,

saedo — Mon, 04/27/2009 - 14:33

I have to log in to be sure, but I think it was like this: 

/cast [help] [target=focus, help] [target=targettarget, help] Tricks of the Trade

Priority list of the guy i'm targetting, the focus, or my target's target.

The buttons underneath is my Outfitter bar.   Lets me quickly see, or even click the combo of gear I want.   The one on the left is the only full set I have.  The rest are all mixed, semi-completed to be filled into my normal set.   i.e the dagger one is indeed Mutilate, and it merely loads in my daggers, and a couple of more Expertise heavy pieces over the normal set.

And yes, I use EventHorizon for my timers now.

Fjork's picture

TrinketMenu.  I only mention

Fjork — Mon, 04/27/2009 - 12:49

TrinketMenu.  I only mention it because I know it's the one I forgot about last week.

"ARGH.  Why isn't my macro werkinzzz......  Oh.  No TrinketMenu...."

saedo's picture

Well techically a raiding

saedo — Mon, 04/27/2009 - 12:55

Well techically a raiding rogue doesn't need that cause there won't be much/any trinket swapping.    Though I do use it for non-raiding purposes.

While on that, a bit more then, Outfitter.   One button item set swaps.

saedo's picture

bumping mah response cause i

saedo — Mon, 04/27/2009 - 11:02

bumping mah response cause i used edit to access the javascript editor lol

Katibug's picture

Rogues with non-cookie cutter

Katibug — Mon, 04/27/2009 - 08:08

Rogues with non-cookie cutter specs typically don't even make it into raid because they perform so poorly.

Atar's picture

Make paragraphs please.

Atar — Mon, 04/27/2009 - 05:39

Make paragraphs please. Walls of text are dumb.

Sounds good

Noctis Umbra — Mon, 04/27/2009 - 11:55

I apologize for the ugly,blocky and less formed replies. I shall do my best to make them a little less offensive to the eyes. =/

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