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Home › Forums › World of Warcraft General › Theorycraft › Priest

Shadow Priest DPS needs some loving.

Anonymous — Thu, 05/21/2009 - 10:01

This is a post on the raid DPS forums I am reposting

Our single target DPS definatly needs something

I would really like haste to be desirable in some way after our softcap, with every new piece of caster cloth that has haste on it drops, i die a little inside, there is way too much haste on ulduar gear - this works to the advantage of ALL other caster dps classes, but we get left in the dust because haste just doesnt scale well with us (if at all after the soft cap)

As many have also said, we get the littlest benefit from spi aswell

Just as a little comparison im going to link some wow meters, im using iron council parses simply because (unless doing medium-hardmode) there is no aoe, rune of power effects all dps casters so there is no advantage for 1 caster over another.

this is Vodka's parse http://www.wowmeteronline.com/combat/2508569#damageout
For those who dont want to load it, their Spriest is doing an impressive 5391 DPS - He came...14th, beaten by mages, locks, a boomkin, feral druid, hunter etc etc

http://www.wowmeteronline.com/combat/4058875#damageout
Both Spriests in this raid pulled around 5k dps, they came 16th and 17th, even beaten by an elemental shaman...who are getting buffs to their pve dps

http://www.wowmeteronline.com/combat/3935450#damageout
Both spriests again pulling about 5k dps each... there guys faired better than the last groups holding the 15th and 16th dps spot... surprise surprise, being beaten by an ele shaman and a boomkin (both of these classes have already been buffed or are going to be buffed while we are already behind them and we are recieving no attention)

http://www.wowmeteronline.com/combat/4047689#damageout
14th and 16th for the Spriests this time, 15th was an ele shaman who was almost equal to the 14th positioned Spriest, a moonkin beat both Spriests

I could keep linking and going on and on and on, but there is no point, its the same in almost every parse (excluding medium-hardmodes where there are aoe adds, in which case an Spriest can come, at best..6th)

Boomkins received pve dps increases recently and now a 5% damage increase hotfix to ele shamans is being put into effect, both of these classes consistently beat Spriests before their buffs, and we still get no attention

Lets hope that this post on the Blizz forums keep going to address the serious issue:

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=16904208001&sid=1&pageNo=1

Obviously alot of people are not happy including myself.

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This is basically what need

Knoppix (not verified) — Sat, 05/23/2009 - 00:30

This is basically what needs to be addressed:

1. Shadow Word: Death is obsolete in our current rotations.
It's an instant cast spell and useful for when we have to move however the lash back damage combined with a low scaling coefficient and a low base damage have made omitting it standard practice. It simply does not benefit us enough to justify attempting to weave it in to our rotation. I'm confused at what Blizzard's plans are for this spell. There's major glyph for it, our t7 bonus, and lash back reducing talent suggest that they see it as an important skill in our PvE arsenal. A buff to it's damage, or an on effect buff gained once used would help us re-include it into our rotation.

2. Haste Scaling
Haste currently soft-caps for Shadow Priests just short of 300 haste rating. This amount of haste brings our Mind Flay cast down to 2.75 seconds, allowing us to fit two full casts in between our 5.5 second Mind Blast cool down. After this point our benefit from haste is much diminished as it becomes difficult to acquire the right amount of haste to fit an additional tick of a Mind Flay cast in between our Mind Blast cool down. Furthermore, haste does not even effect our DoTs besides reducing the GCD on their initial cast. Our problems with haste scaling is galvanized by the disproportionate amount of haste on our t8 gear in comparison to other casters, and our t8 4-piece bonus which grants us haste rating after every Mind Blast.

3. Spirit Scaling
Shadow Priests convert 20% of all spirit into spell power. An additional 10% conversion would bring us in line with other casters (elemental shaman aside), and might help out scaling issues.

4. Glyph of Mind Flay
Glyphing Mind Flay to increase it's range to be on par with the rest of our shadow spells is a mainstay for all PvE Shadow Priests. It hurts our DPS and scaling when instead of increasing our damage we have to spend a major glyph spot to increase the range of one of our bread and butter spells by 10 yards. It really feels like a clunky solution to a range problem that's been plaguing us since TBC.

5. Devouring Plague Cool Down
This is mostly a problem with how many encounters work in Ulduar. When there are multiple quick-dying mobs that need to be single targeted down this spell may have 10+ seconds still on cool down by the time we start focussing the next mob. Could the cool down on this spell possibly reset once the mob it's on dies? Could it be lowered to 10 seconds instead of 24? I think the best solution would be to make it so you can only have it up on one mob at a time, but remove the cool down.

6. VE Utility
TBC Shadow Priests were low damage but high utility bringing powerful party heals, mana regeneration, and magic damage buffs. In WoTLK we may have been slightly over-striped of it. Currently our claims at utility have been pared down to Replenishment, 3% hit, and VE. Compared to a Moonkin who brings 3% hit, 13% spell damage, 5% crit, and 3% haste our utility pales a bit. Vampiric Embrace has long been a defining spell in the Shadow Tree's arsenal, however it's current raid utility is much weaker than Judgement of Light and even Leader of the Pack. Perhaps turning it into a caster version of Judgement of Light is the answer, or reworking the spell to perform completely differently as suggested in this thread.

7. Lack of On Demand Cool Downs
Other DPSers have significant cool downs they can utilize for on demand burst while shadow priest rotation remains the same regardless. In Ulduar short-lasting significant damage buffs are a part of almost every encounter. Popping Icy Veins in a rune of power or Beserk on the Heart of the Deconstructor is what can really jostle the damage meters.

Bug Fixes:
- Instant damage from Devouring Plague not benefiting from Shadow Focus.
- Shadow Word: Pain not counting current buffs or debuffs when refreshed by Mind Flay.
- Devouring Plague's initial application critting at 150% instead of 200%.
- Devouring Plague not properly benefiting from our t8 2-piece bonus.
- A delay in our 4-piece t8 haste bonus after each Mind Blast so that our next Mind Flay isn't benefiting from said haste. (mixed reports, could be a latency problem?)

Obviously not all of these would have to be implemented to tweak Shadow Priest DPS a little bit, and Blizzard might simply decide it's easier to tack on a flat damage multiplier to one of our talents or decide that they're happy with where we are. However I think these all address mechanics that feel "clunky" or frustrating as a Shadow Priest, and would help give our class a boost in the competitive dire

BUMP: any other legitimate

Knoppix (not verified) — Fri, 05/22/2009 - 17:25

BUMP: any other legitimate comments no QQ...our dps is skewed just like Mori said.  Look at some parses from top end guilds about shadow priest DPS and help the shadow priest community some much needed love.

Agoney's picture

One of the main problems with

Agoney — Thu, 05/21/2009 - 12:53

One of the main problems with spriests is how shitty our damage scales compaired to most other classes. This was highly evident in TBC & appears to be just as evident now.

I'd love to see our damage buffed, but I highly doubt it will happen. Really they can just re-adjust the the mind flay equation (similiar to the bug we experienced for a day in naxx) and we'd be in good line. The goal for us (and other hybrids) would be for us to fall behind the pure dps classes, with good players being able to match pure DPS classes. (assuming a stationary boss)

While lag/latency affects each class, it espeacially affects shadow priests, where timing is basically everything. I usually average about 300ms to the server, but nights where i'm in the 100s I can see an inc of a couple 100 dps.

The vodka sp's are pretty low though to be honest.. 5300 isnt that great considering that was attainable on patchwerk if you had max gear and good internet connection.

Agoney's picture

I still think we are really

Agoney — Thu, 05/21/2009 - 13:09

I still think we are really useful in Ulduar though. YS is the perfect shadow priest fight. With equal gear I see it being really hard not to be in the top 3 for that fight. Not to mention, we now have high survivability now unlike TBC.

Yeah Yogg is a perfect fight

Knoppix (not verified) — Thu, 05/21/2009 - 13:14

Yeah Yogg is a perfect fight for us but they shouldnt use that to adjust or DPS by.  I came out basically position 1-2 on all pulls but one that I got gibbed on

I agree with everything you

Knoppix (not verified) — Thu, 05/21/2009 - 13:13

I agree with everything you said.  And this class is very hard to play you mess up your timing once and you are pretty fucked for DPS most likely.

Our coefficient is also very low compared to all other DPS casters which also attains to our lower DPS and having to pound the keyboard so damn hard.

I mean yeah 5300 DPS is low I can hit that for the most part or pass it but that is damn near my maximum DPS.  As the new raids come out and the gear gets better the worse our DPS will be just like TBC due to horrible DPS scaling because a shadow priest is totally different from any other DPS caster Blizzard either 1 is being ignorant or 2 doesnt know how to fix it.

I totally agree a hybrid that is VERY good and I mean VERY should be able to compete with a pure DPS on the top of their game no matter what.  A DPS spec is a DPS spec imho if you are good you can blow shit up end of story pending the equal damage for all classes is implemented which it will never be done.

I would love to have other

Knoppix (not verified) — Thu, 05/21/2009 - 12:37

I would love to have other peoples comments on this not just as a bashing session but to also help better myself if there needs ot be some improvement from me.  I am not sure that I need improvement but I do learn from others advice and am willing to take it if it is legitimate and researched response based on statistics.

moriella's picture

more

moriella — Thu, 05/21/2009 - 12:41

Your dps is within a reasonable value what the best Sp's in game are able to produce with current game and class mechanics.  Really nothing to discuss about it.

Thanks for playing at the top of your game.

moriella's picture

I agree with knoppix

moriella — Thu, 05/21/2009 - 12:36

I've realized that SP damage has been off for several months now.  I look at lots of parses from other guilds and there is lots of evidence that SP damage is not where it should be - they just are not scaling properly.

Knoppix makes an impressive showing every week because he really plays his class at close to maximum potential.  Our raid doesnt have many pure dps classes that play at the top of their game.  Most of our hybrids dont do nearly the dps that they are capable of either.

Our raid parses skew the SP arguments but it's because many of our other DPS players are just not playing at full potential.

This isnt limited to 'only' our dps classes.  Its a common issue across our raid and jobs. Out of 25 raiders we are lucky to have 50% who play near 'best of class'

I'm thankful we have players like knoppix who give it 'all they have' 100% of the time.

 

 

Shihli's picture

I will be taking steps to

Shihli — Thu, 05/21/2009 - 12:39

I will be taking steps to begin "correcting" our raid's dps.  Suffice to say, I will be having some chats with people.

Thank you Mori :)

Knoppix (not verified) — Thu, 05/21/2009 - 12:38

Thank you Mori :)

saedo's picture

You probably do need some

saedo — Thu, 05/21/2009 - 10:47

You probably do need some fixing, but there's a couple of issues I have about your complaint.

1.   Don't complain about mages, hunters, and locks beating you.   They're in the "pure dps" bucket, you're in the "hybrid dps" bucket.    If all things being equal in gear, skill, and law of averages, they should be beating you.

2.  Instead of focusing on placing, focus on percentages.     So what if you're 16th place, what if you're only 1% behind?   That sort of thing.    

Now looking at the parses you did place, SPs are pretty far behind.     But still, that's one fight.    And even one that I wouldn't particularly judge as a good dps indicator due to all the movement that is required.

This begs the question, are SPs weaker due to movement than other classes?   Need to sit still for mind flay to tick and all?

What about other fights?   Ignis?   Razorscale P2?   Hodir?   Thorim P3?   Freya P2?   Mimiron even maybe?   Vezax?   etc, etc.

Yes I know some of those I listed do have adds, but, they have phases where it's single target by themselves so with a parse can easily just split to that part of the fight.

Anyways, what I'm getting at is what you posted simply isn't close to the full picture so it's not enough for me to jump on your bandwagon.

moriella's picture

ramp up dps

moriella — Thu, 05/21/2009 - 12:48

One of the biggest issues with shadow priests is the 'ramp up' time to hit full dps potential.  Knoppix could talk with more authority on this but I believe SP is unique that they take about 15 seconds of casting time, much of which must be stationary to reach max dps potential on a single target.  I dont know of any other class in game, even an affliction lock which 'comes on' so slowly.  DPS with a SP can be compared to driving a economy car.  Sure, it will go 85mph it just takes a long time to get there.

I have to cast 5 spells

Knoppix (not verified) — Thu, 05/21/2009 - 13:00

I have to cast 5 spells before I can even apply dots to get maximum DPS which takes a good 10 sec.  Gratnted I dont wait that long to apply dots but I do end up having to reapply them to take advantage of the spell power increase from Shadow Weaving...if Blizzard would fucking fix the Mind Flay refresh on Shadow Word pain this would be one step into helping save one GCD....yay one GCD but anything helps for a class that has to have so much finess while weaving spells together to maximize DPS.

Also another BUG that they are not fixing anytime soon...our great new Improved Devouring Plague has a huge bug where it misses alot even though I am well over hit cap...that spell also has a 24 second cooldown...meaning if it misses I loose out on 24 sec at 600+ dps per second or if the mob dies early I waste 15-24 sec of a DOT.  They need to:

1.) Remove the CD and allow it to be on one target only (like it already is) so PVP people dont QQ about its healing.

2.) Remove the CD and take away the healing and allow it to be on multiple targets.

Shit I would be happy if they removed the CD and tossed the healing from it the healing is minimal at most.

There is alot more wrong with the class than I have stated I could write a very large article which I care not to.  If you have anymore questions pelase let me know and I will be more than willing to enlighten you.

Just another response on the forums

Knoppix (not verified) — Thu, 05/21/2009 - 11:33

From my perspective as a fellow Hybrid DPS class Shadowpriest DPS is fine. We brought 2 to our Steelbreaker last kill and they both did excellent DPS.

Reply from some horde guy:

wow...wow....wow....wow

from YOUR perspective huh, why dont you have a look at the HARD DATA we have in this thread, we dont care if YOUR Spriests did excellent dps compared to the rest of your dps..that simply means the rest of your dps is FAIL

I hate people that assume a classes dps is fine just because the class in their guild does fine, when there is real data that shows the class is subpar

I think i will, and everyone should (including devs), take parses from vodka more serious than the word of a single person that isnt in a world first kill progression type guild

perhaps you should be looking at the parses we've posted, or looking at your other dps's averages and compare them to the wowmeteronline.com averages, because if your Spriests are breaking into the top 10 on IC harddmode, it means that your other DPS is total fail or your Spriests severely outgear the rest of your dps'ers

Read all 16+ pages of that

Knoppix (not verified) — Thu, 05/21/2009 - 11:19

Read all 16+ pages of that forum there are more statistics I just copy pasted the results.  You have no idea how hard I have to smash my keyboard.  I would love to compare how hard I have to try to even get decent DPS compared to a Mage or a Hunter or a  Boomkin or a Ret Paladin I am not trying to bash anyone but just stating that a Shadow Priest is extremely hard to play...the only other class that might have as difficult of a DPS rotation as me is a Warlock or a Rogue.

What my point is look at other hybrid classes compared to us we should at least be able to be competative.  Boomkins, Elemental Shamans, Death Knights and soon coming Warriors all have gotten or are getting a buff and all can out DPS Shadow Priests and they are ALL hybrid classes.

My DPS is higher than average because I really bust my ass while raiding and I am sure other people do as well but I am sorry if I have to try so hard that I break my 2 key while fighting Yogg and my single target DPS can harldy hit 4700 on a fight like Patchwerk while others and I mean hybrids like Boomkins can pull 6100 DPS you are damn right there is some balance DPS issues that need to be addressed for Shadow Priests.

Yes we are extremely weak to movement and DPS our primary nuke ability is Mind Flay which is on a 3 second channeled cast, clipping the spell is bad resulting in horrible DPS.  Our other is Mind Blast which has a 5.5 second cool down so on movement fights when Mind Flay is our only spell we cant spam.  Also I am sorry but every other hybrid class has a nuke spell that is instant cast and on a short CD or has a fast cast and also on a very short CD that can hit to an upwards of 15K+ where Mind Blast maxes out at 10K if you are lucky.  The only instant cast stuff we have is DOTS which are alot of mana and Shadow Word Death which no Shadow Priest uses due to its low damage and it causes healers to have to heal us due to taking 30% of the damage you deal from it.  We also have the least amount of bonus crit from talents and base crit which we now rely on since the 3.1 taking away our bonus damage to DOTS based on our crit % and giving us critting DOTS instead meaning we need to stack crit and hope that the RNG Gods love us. 

There is more to it that just DPS as well our utility as a Shadow Priest went out the window as of 3.1 so many classes have replinishment now and Ulduar gear forces hit up peoples asses and the healing from Vampiric Embrace is so small now....I am concerned that I am not needed because you could bring anoter class that offers the same that can also do more DPS...I know this wont happen I would hope but you can see the concern from me as well as across shadowpriest.com and the blizzard raid DPS forums.

There are many more parses linked later in the forum if you read it, I just copy and pasted the first ones I came across.  I am not complaining just stating that our scaling is horribly fucked up for haste and spirit and researching and theorycrafting will prove it.  We should at least be able to come close to other hybrid classes if we have the same talent and gearset and try just as hard as they do but this is not the case.

saedo's picture

Well I tend to avoid reading

saedo — Thu, 05/21/2009 - 11:36

Well I tend to avoid reading wow forums cause it's probably 15 pages of garbage there.

But, guess good luck in getting them to notice the SPs again.

Here is more proof

Knoppix (not verified) — Thu, 05/21/2009 - 11:51

http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=rRrP3ax3TUSiJuE660om5bQ

saedo's picture

Where is this data coming

saedo — Thu, 05/21/2009 - 12:01

Where is this data coming from?

From here

Knoppix (not verified) — Thu, 05/21/2009 - 12:34

http://shadowpriest.com/viewtopic.php?f=57&t=21820

Granted being good and doing good DPS takes skill, I believe I am good at playing a shadow priest but there are just alot of concerns and our scaling is very badly designed.  4700 DPS is easy for me to pull if bad shit doesnt happen...to pull 6k-7k without a gimmic fight is really hard and just not possible.  Just standing there and nuking the shit of of something is where it really shows.  The only time I can really do in upwards of 6-7k+ is fights that I can abuse AOE or there are some very nice raid buffs like on Yogg

This is the first time I paid

Knoppix (not verified) — Thu, 05/21/2009 - 11:41

This is the first time I paid attention and it is far from garbage ther are actually smart people posting real stats that actually do show that there is an issue.

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