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Poll
What do you think about no flying for an entire expansion?
YES) It makes me feel more immersed in the game lore.
15%
YES) It encourages more PvP! (Please explain how in comments)
5%
YES) I miss riding my ground mounts.
9%
MAYBE) If you make all of my flying mounts able to be ground too.
8%
MAYBE) if ground mounts are sped up to 200% speed (or higher)
26%
NO) I don't have enough time when I'm on to be riding everywhere
7%
NO) I have spent too much time getting various levels of flying to be wasting it.
11%
NO) It encourages more PVP! (please explain in the comments)
0%
NO) I love flying.
19%
Total votes: 74
changing to affliction
moriella — Wed, 05/27/2009 - 12:00Affliction is the most difficult spec to play, as it always has been.
I strongly disagree that your dots are not an important part of your build. Your poor dot uptime cost you somewhere in the realm of 1M damage over the night. Thats not small beans. There are sooo many times where you cannot stand still and nuke. When you move, you ensure your dots are up, when you stop and stand still you nuke (not letting dots fall off of course)
these two dots give you 700dps when they are up. At the cost of 2 gcd's - ignoring them is folly
you spent two points in 'molten core' talent point. that talent magnifies your nuke dps WHEN YOUR dots are up.
Conclusion - not keeping your dots up as near 100% of the time as possible is hurting.
Affliction *is* a tough spec
Vitriola — Wed, 05/27/2009 - 12:44Affliction *is* the toughest to play. I wish that I could play it well as I was sl/sl back in the day and love my dots. Also, I think that dots are important enough that I keep some up as much as I can. I made it a point to always keep one dot or another cooking for molten core.
I am not sure how you figured that I was a million damage short for dots not running. Perhaps it was the 700 dps for two dots you mentioned. I am not sure how you got that either. e.g.
CoA does 1740 over 24 seconds. Adding about 3k for raid buffs, a huge number but lets be generous, and you have about 4700. Over 24 seconds, that is almost 200 dps. corruption is 1080 over 18 seconds. Adding around 3k to that as with CoA and you have about 4k over 18 seconds for about 220 dps. That is not 700. That takes at least 2 seconds of global cooldown. Casting incinerate takes just under 2 seconds and does about 2k for my parsed average. that is 1k dps vs about 400 dps. This is why some do not think that those dots should be used at all. Also, here is the calculating if I use the same methods of calculating as I did for the dots: incinerate does around 700 points. Adding 3k to that divided by the 2 seconds casting time (rounded up) and that is 1850 dps. This is why there were those in the warlock's den that did not think that those two dots were useful at all in this spec. I think that it is also why Forshurely did not bother with them. It may well be that my dps suffered *because* I used them, but there it is. I am still analyzing.
Still, those things are academic. I know that I need to improve (thanks again, Shihli) and will be looking into improving my hit. I do have hit gear that I did not wear as I thought that I was geared as best as I could be based on articles of the theory. I will dig out the hit gear. I think that I will change to match Forsurley's build and give that a go. I have been using destro for pvp so I am not unfamiliar with it. Still, all change requires time to adapt. I will make a few changes and check the parses again and look for more changes to make.
One step at a time, so to speak.
DoTs
moriella — Wed, 05/27/2009 - 13:49Your curse of agany does an average of 380/tic. It tics every two seconds. thats 190dps
Corruption tics for 632 every 3 seconds , thats 210 dps
I was incorrect on 700 , dps from your dots is 400. I think I looked at the same line twice earlier, good catch.
Casting incinerate takes just under 2 seconds and does about 2k for my parsed average. that is 1k dps vs about 400 dps.
In this statement is where your argument falls apart - yes 400dps in 2 seconds is less than what you could get from one incinerate in those same 2 seconds of cast time. HOWEVER, you cannot discount the next 20 seconds of those spells that are constantly ticking WHILE you are casting other spells.
I hope that makes sense. If not I can create a table showing what I mean in more detail. Bottom line is that high dot uptime is what seperates a great lock from the average lock. Comparing your rotations to Forshurly is folly as well. 1. he is a different spec than you 2. He is about 1000dps from where he should be as well.
Take a look and compare these two parses. They are a fair comparison as the fight times are reasonable close on xt-002
http://wowwebstats.com/msysnjnvmwy2u?s=225110-283423 us
http://wowwebstats.com/zbk6zixghm4oy?s=46432-93323 'cuties only'
And comparing those, one of
saedo — Wed, 05/27/2009 - 15:44And comparing those, one of the afflic locks Ekuun, did 251,958 damage to the adds. Vitrola did 279, 014 damage to the adds.
So it's comparable there. The difference lies in this:
So what the afflic locks managed was to keep fairly large constant dps on XT/Heart while simultenously dealing with adds. This particular lock was 7th in damage on XT, and well 15th on the Heart, so fell behind there.
Maybe this is only something the best of afflic locks can do?
heavy on theory
Vitriola — Wed, 05/27/2009 - 14:54I was trying to avoid things getting to deep into theory crafting with explanations getting too long and end up hijacking this thread, but you do have a point. In the debate on the warlock's den, there was a difference distinguished between damage per second and damage per casting time. This was applied mostly to affiction but it has its supporters and detractors. Also, we agreed that affliction was the most difficult spec to play well, so, as well as the cuties' affliction locks did, I do not think that I can duplicate that anytime soon. Furthermore, there was a recent nerf and destro is now considered to be best by many.
I mentioned that I thought that the dots were important and cast them because I subscribe to the casting time per damage idea. Yes, my spec is different from Forshurley but my main damage spells are destro so the idea is similar. Comparisons are rarely folly, though the conclusions may be. I was simply noting that he does not use those dots so using them is not really the difference between a great lock and an average one as I do not consider him average. I was only saying that constant dot uptime is not always a good belweather and that I was trying to figure out what was the best way to interpret what I was doing. I think that Garreth had a good idea and will try to copy one of our great locks until I can excel at it. Then, I may see if I can improve things. Still, it is a place to start.
dps vs damage per casting time
moriella — Wed, 05/27/2009 - 15:57this is not a valid argument for your dots.
think of it this way. You said that CoA is 4600 damage over 24 seconds , right? Think of your CoA dot like a 4700 damage nuke that is insta cast with a 24 second cooldown before you can cast it again. If they changed it to this model, you would pound that button every time it was up wouldnt you? Most locks would get an add on that made their screen flash everytime it was up so they didnt miss it.
In essence this is really what a dot is. The only time you cant apply this model, is if the boss is going to die within the 24 seconds before the DoT totally ticks. even tho it's backloaded damage on this dot, the same principle holds true.
The exact same model is true for corruption.
Forget about them being dots during all phases of the fight except the last 20 seconds and mash them every time they are up.
You will do the exact same damage as if you had an insta cast 4700 nuke.
Being that these dots serve to increase the damage on your dd nuke, I really cant see a case to not have them up as near to 100% as possible.
not aff locks
moriella — Wed, 05/27/2009 - 15:21those were not aff locks, they were destro locks
They were Affliction locks.
saedo — Wed, 05/27/2009 - 15:35They were Affliction locks. Note the use of Haunt and Unstable Affliction.
ack
moriella — Wed, 05/27/2009 - 15:43i just looked at armory - they are destro locks now
my bad
retooling done and ready
Vitriola — Wed, 05/27/2009 - 15:51I changed the spec to match Forsurley. I also changed some gear. My base hit rating is now 254 (not counting talents to increase that, which I also have) and haste is now just over 400. That should be a good place to start. Wish me luck! :)
Rock on. Stoked to see the
garreth — Wed, 05/27/2009 - 15:55Rock on. Stoked to see the changes in action!
Do what we did with
garreth — Wed, 05/27/2009 - 13:02Do what we did with Forshurley: Get with Watchesup. He's consistently 5k+ and that's where you can be. Consider doing a copycat of his spec/gems/etc and work with him on rotation and addons.
Watchesup
Vitriola — Wed, 05/27/2009 - 13:07I would love to do just that with someone. I will send him a private message and see if he is amenable.
p.s. How do you pronounce Watchesup?
Watches-U-P.
saedo — Wed, 05/27/2009 - 13:10Watches-U-P.
when you go to the bathroom,
everstar — Wed, 05/27/2009 - 14:20when you go to the bathroom, bewaaareee
Where are you seeing those
saedo — Wed, 05/27/2009 - 11:21Where are you seeing those numbers?
I see Hodir: http://stats.downfallguild.org/kb/sws-hodir-1243398614/actor_0x040000000...
CoA 99.9% uptime
Corruption 86.5% uptime
XT: http://stats.downfallguild.org/kb/sws-xt002-1243392478/actor_0x040000000...
CoA 59.3% uptime
Corruption 56.5% uptime
calculated manually
moriella — Wed, 05/27/2009 - 11:36using this formula http://www.stratfu.com/strats/CalculateDotUptime
Hodir fight lenght was 5'03 but for these numbers I used his presence so as to not penalize him for any early death
100*2*81 dot applications = 16200/presence (276 seconds) = 58.69 dot uptime CoA
100x3x39 dot applications = 11700/presence (276 seconds) = 42.39 corruption
I've used this forumla for a couple years to calculate DoT uptime. A quick check of knoppix and swp on this same fight with the same formula shows him at 88%
Looks like he died 2:58 into
saedo — Wed, 05/27/2009 - 11:58Looks like he died 2:58 into it. Can't find a battle rez, so not sure why his presence is still at 4:34.
But with his dps activity being 2:56, that'd give him an CoA uptime of 90% using that formula. 16200 / 176 = 92.045% uptime
Looking at the logs in WWS: http://wowwebstats.com/msysnjnvmwy2u?s=728118-792311&bl=767627&filter=un...
His corpse gained Toasty Fire somehow to smuge his presence up? Cause after that death, there was nothing else.
If Mori is right and your DoT
Scaron — Wed, 05/27/2009 - 23:26If Mori is right and your DoT uptime is in the 50-60% range, then the problem lies, in part, with the low-ness of that statistic.
If Saedo is right and DoT uptime is closer to 90 or above %, I'm a little surprised to see low DPS numbers. In this case...DoT uptime may be too high. This is diagnostic because the easiest way to have a high DoT uptime is to clip your dots. This is also the number 1 warlock DPS reducer (at least for a warlock who gets lots of DPS from dots). This is especially the case for CoA which gets bigger hits at the end of the duration...basically by clipping you sacrifice higher numbers for lower numbers and effectively ruin your DPCT (damage per cast time).
When one does both...by sometimes not applying dots immediately and by sometimes clipping dots, DoT uptime becomes difficult to interpret, but universally bad for DPS.
wonky parse
moriella — Wed, 05/27/2009 - 12:10hodir might be wonky. But XT is still what it is and I looked at IC as well. Iron Council shows 80% coa 60% corruption. I imagine these type numbers are similar on most all fights.
It can only parse based on
saedo — Wed, 05/27/2009 - 12:35It can only parse based on the combat log it recieves. So apparently, a corpse near toasty fire will trigger a combat log entry, that'd be entirely up to Blizz's design/fault.
Yea, XT numbers should be fine, though he's probably new and had to deal with adds more so don't expect too much there yet.
IC numbers are probably fine, he got high dps times there and it's pretty much single target all the way (one after another).
I was mostly just making sure the Hodir numbers were accurate, not disputing anything else.
Oops, you posted here
saedo — Wed, 05/27/2009 - 10:24Oops, you posted here lol
Here's a 2nd look at parses if you haven't seen: http://stats.downfallguild.org/kb/sws-overall-1243388297/index.html
It probably does a better job at splits and stuff too, in particular, Iron Council. WWS ends the fight when Steelbreaker dies instead of all 3.
Anyways, the FailBot/FailBoat/EnsidiaFails addon measures avoidable raid damage, debuffs, silences, etc.
And might as well warn you for the upcoming bosses
As for trying a new spec for the 2nd half, I dunno. Do you really have anything to lose? You've seen you're pretty much bottom of the pack on almost every fight. So if you think you can squeeze more dps, go for it.
I may be a bit late as I will
Shihli — Tue, 05/26/2009 - 23:32I may be a bit late as I will be in Seattle for the early/middle part of the day, visiting my sister.
I don't plan on being late, though. I'll give Garreth a call ahead of time if I will be late.
I won't be late after all, my
Shihli — Wed, 05/27/2009 - 11:47I won't be late after all, my sister never called me back, so she never told me where she was in Seattle, so I never left Bellingham.
Should be able to make this
Katibug — Tue, 05/26/2009 - 08:47Should be able to make this raid as I get off work at 5:30.
1630.. is this a mistake or
primistic — Mon, 05/25/2009 - 23:151630.. is this a mistake or we start that early?
Fixed mistake? I see 18:30.
saedo — Tue, 05/26/2009 - 00:30Fixed mistake? I see 18:30.