Kitsuneshin's Application.

kitsuneshin — Thu, 06/25/2009 - 15:10

Character Info

Name:

kitsuneshin

Server:

Gorgonnash

Race:

Human

Class:

Paladin

Role:

Tanking

General Questions

Which days are you available for organized guild events? (Raids, RBGs, etc):

Monday

Tuesday

Wednesday

Thursday

Friday

Upload UI:

Which addons do you consider essential and why?:

I've gotten used to mine and feel that they are quite useful. I use Deadly boss mods, xperl, Pally power, omen3 (threat monitor), and bartender. I am willing to change some, but I am quite content with how mine are now and will have some trouble adjusting if there are any huge changes to appearance and/or function.

PvE

Raid Experience:

I did not start raiding until Wotlk. I got to 70 as it was released, and quit shortly into it only to recently come back to the game.

I have tanked every heroic wotlk dungeon, EoE 10/25, OS 10/25 (1d), Naxx 10/25, and voa 10/25. I have also tanked ulduar 10/25 with 9/14 bosses on 10 man and 7/14 on 25 man.

Personal

What timezone are you in?:

Georgia, US

Tell us a little about yourself.:

I'm an 18 year old college student who is currently working to pay for next semester. I spend most of my free time gaming, but I also greatly enjoy reading fantasy novels and I occasionally hang out with friends.

Open/Closed:

Closed

Considering that the comment

kitsuneshin — Fri, 06/26/2009 - 20:06

Considering that the comment is concerning Pugs which are in no way similar to guild raids, that's a bit backwards but if that is how you feel then there's nothing to be done.

I already fixed those issues, and I didn't come here with that kind of attitude concerning the guild. I would be the third best tank in the guild in terms of gear, but even if I were the best geared I would still improve. There is a large difference between devoting yourself for the sake of random leechers barely in heroic gear and a dedicated team of players who I can rely on. It is obvious I will try harder for those who also make an effort.

The real difference is that

Derchlon — Fri, 06/26/2009 - 20:41

The real difference is that as a player, you should always be pushing to do your best, regardless of whom you run with. Its not about devoting yourself to a pug, or to a guild. Its about self improvement, and it seems from your earlier comment that self improvement is not a priority to you unless you stand to lose/gain something.

Also as far as I'm concerned, there is no "debating" with Epat. He is the best prot pally I've seen on this server, and knows what he's doing with his class. I dare you to emulate him, as I guarantee you will perform better.

I firmly believe we would not gain anything from your services at this point in time, and that you would be better served with another guild. I vote no.

It's not for the guild or for

saedo — Fri, 06/26/2009 - 20:10

It's not for the guild or for pugs. It's for your own self. You're saying you won't improve your toon to the best it can be... Unless you have to.

Not at all what I was saying.

kitsuneshin — Fri, 06/26/2009 - 20:13

Not at all what I was saying. I was saying that the bit of stamina wasnt' worth the money just for the sake of a pug. I'd rather save it up as I aim for the spiked deathdealers and belt. I don't think 120 life is going to matter any time soon in raids, so it makes more sense to wait until after I save up and buy the useful things that I want before I go back to regemming 2 sockets.

Honestly, a pally doesn't

Ghli — Thu, 06/25/2009 - 21:37

Honestly, a pally doesn't really need to gem for hit, as most of the threat is from offensive spells as holy damage and reflected spells from holy shield, i.e. paladin spells are on the spell hit part of the hit equation. As for what can we do to gem to get more threat? The simplest answer is just to gem for stam, as we have [Touched by the Light]. You should have at least 16 expertise, be it from talents and [Glyph of Seal of Vengeance] or other places. Do you really have to gem or enchant for expertise? Not really; you can get this naturally on the gear that you get.

Now about the rest of your talent tree and glyph choices....
You don't need 2/2 Spiritual Attunement and [glyph of Spiritual Attunement]. 1/2 SA is more than enough especially since tankadins (pally tanks) have a near 100% uptime of divine plea.

Why did you choose [glyph of hammer of the righteous]? If you are that concerned about having threat problems with trash with 4 pulls, you need to rethink on how you pull trash: AS 3 mobs, taunt or exorcism the last mob and attack it first. You now have 4 trash mobs completely under your control.
As to which glyphs to switch to from these 2 glyphs? [Glyph of Righteous Defense] which gives you a guaranteed taunt or [Glyph of Seal of Vengeance] which would give you 10 more expertise. [Glyph of Judgment] would work as well if you can get above 16 expertise.

You have spec’ed 2/2 Imp Judgment (which the next part I’m going to talk about) and 5/5 Divinity. Have you heard of the 96969 rotation? It has to do with using tanking cooldowns that have cooldowns of 9 seconds, 6 seconds, 9, 6, and 9 seconds. This has been proved to give the greatest threat generation and dps with out dropping a GCD in a tanking rotation. Source: http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=21933#p404160 . What are 9 second CDs? Holy shield (this lasts 10 seconds and has 8 charges, but the CD is 8 seconds; you can safely assume a 9 second "CD" for this purpose), Judgments (if you spec 1/2 imp judgments), and Consecrate. What are the 6 second CDs? HotR, SotR, and Hammer of Wrath (when you are in execute range).

Reconsider not taking 5/5 Divinity and use it as a filler for left over points. Why do I say this? Consider taking a Crusade/PoJ/imp HoJ spec http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#sZq0xAMuMusIufdts0hbc, or a Crusade/imp HoJ spec http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#sZq0xAMuMusIufdts0x0c with Tuskarr's Vitality enchanted on your boots. There is, as you are more than aware, a lot of crap on the ground that you and/or a raid boss must get out of, and PoJ or Tuskarr’s Vitality will fill that niche of getting out of crap faster.
As for not having a full 5/5 Divinity, consider this: a Flash of Light done to you with 0/5 Divinity heals for roughly 3360 and can crit for about 5200, while a Holy Light heals for 9800 and can crit for 14400. That same FoL with 5/5 Divinity heals for 3530 and can crit for about 5460, while HL heals for 10300 and can crit for 15100. Now factor in that healers are generally going to overheal in the range of 30%-80%, does it now seem worth it to spec a full Divinity while giving healers an additional 5% over heal, or just fill it up with left over points?

The only gems i have for hit

kitsuneshin — Fri, 06/26/2009 - 17:09

The only gems i have for hit are in yellow sockets for the socket bonus. I do need to change one to half hit, half stam, but the rest are quite decent. I'd rather have 8 hit over 6 stam anyday.

As for the prismatic, I didn't really bother since in the next patch they won't be prismatic and will have to be changed again, and it's only adding in 12 stamina to change it while taking away hit. I'll go ahead and change it though, as it isn't very costly.

Hit is one of the main stats for a tank. It not only helps with threat but with taunts and pulls. A single dodged taunt can easily equal raid wipe, as most bosses need only 1 hit to instant kill a healer and if everyone is attacking the boss he might get 2 or 3 hits before I get the threat to keep it locked on me.

I am a bit confused about your expertise comment as I have 25 expertise. I am nearly expertise capped to avoid being dodged, and it is nearly impossible to get expertise capped to avoid being parried as you would have to equip everything for it.

Glyph of spiritual attunement could be replaced, but it has value. Considering that I dodge/parry/miss nearly 50% of the time, the mana isn't as much as you think. I have had times in 10 man ulduar when i've been below 2k mana because I don't need all that many heals and divine plea is kind of weak (5% every 3 seconds, you can burn 2 or 3 times that easily).

I'm sorry to say, but Righteous defense is absolute garbage. it pulls 3 random mobs off a player who is targeted. Hand of reckoning is our only decent taunt. If you ever have a need to taunt, it is to pull a specific monster(s) off another tank. As for glyph of seal of vengeance, I don't use vengeance and corruption is ret. I use the seal of light and/or mana.

For glyph of righteousness, it is just another dps/tps booster. If you think I should use other glyphs, then by all means please say which ones and I'd be happy to debate them. It may not be necessary, but it sure as hell doesn't hurt to have more tps, especially when running with the really hardcore dps. If a dps ever has to limit him/herself, then the tank is screwing up.

The main job of the tank is survivability and holding aggro. Divinity, which is 5% boost on every heal (your math was way off, just to let you know :/). Tanks do not have any responsibility for damage, which is what you're trying to tell me to go towards.

I replied point by point to try and keep it organized, and I'm willing to debate this in game if you desire. In my view, your response is highly dps oriented. It just doesn't fit a tank.

I'll reply to this after my

Epatrick — Fri, 06/26/2009 - 17:29

I'll reply to this after my dailies... but as a mt tankadin in kitten brigade there's a ton of tweaking and just plain "wtf" in this app.

okay, done.

RIghteous defense is a garbage spell? please explain. In use with grid it is absolutely godlike, as it keeps the aoeing classes alive. I also use it in VoA to pull the two mobs that don't get hit with my shield/exorcism before they squish the druid with rolling hots on the tank. I also don't have to tab through the mobs to find the one beating on the rogue, I just see the aggro light on grid and use my macro.

Gemming for hit/expertise on a paladin is not optimal. expertise is a stat that is almost completely useless on a paladin, as we only do swing attacks and HoTR that could even be parry/dodged. The only time I would use high hit would be a chain taunting fight like Brut or Razorscale where a missed taunt can be problematic. I also like righteous defense because if HoR misses you can still use that second taunt. even HoTR isn't really a parryable attack, as it shows a "deflect" whenever it does not hit.

I don't want to respond to the rest of this, but 2/2 is a waste in SA if you're running out of mana, bless BoSanc instead of kings and divinity won't really help you ever. the only thing I could think of this working with would SoL. a bigger heal on you when you're at full health won't do anything extra and our healers overheal so much that it's a non issue. If you're having mana issues to the extent that you need to have 2/2, stop consecrating. your other spells are low cost.

If a healer takes aggro in

kitsuneshin — Fri, 06/26/2009 - 17:57

If a healer takes aggro in voa, he's doing something wrong :/. I've never had an issue with that, as I drop a consecrate and exorcism on one and then hammer of the righteous to hit 4 right off and taunt the one that doesn't have as much aggro.

As I said, if you as a tank aren't generating enough threat to keep mobs on you, then you're doing something wrong. The only time I ever taunt is in fights like razorscale where you're tossing back and for the the aggro.

I have quite a few points to make on the hit rating. Hit is not only melee. Hit rating=spell hit rating as well, which means every single one of our attacks is affected by it. Expertise isn't as much a big deal, and I haven't gemmed at all for it.

Your third point... it's quite senseless. You should never, ever place a buff in place of kings. To even think of trading survivability for mana is to be completely clueless. Yes, I could probably make due without a second point in SA, but what would I put it in? There aren't many other talents of any use to me. It would be a downgrade in every single way to give up some mana and consecrate less for another % of crit hits.

http://www.wowhead.com/?talen

Ghli — Fri, 06/26/2009 - 18:30

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#sZq0xAMuMusIufdts0hbc

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#sZq0xAMuMusIufdts0x0c

These are 2 ways on how you can spec 1/2 SA. Look familar? Should be, becase it's the same 2 links that i posted above.

If you don't even like to bless yourself with [Blessing of Sanctuary], then don't even bother playing a prot pally. Go reroll a Warrior. Hell, go spec 5/5 Benediction if you're that concerned with your mana for your spells.

Yes, I know you posted those

kitsuneshin — Fri, 06/26/2009 - 18:41

Yes, I know you posted those before. I disagreed with the validity of sacrificing survivability for dps, which is completely what you are doing there, until I discussed it with a friend who pointed out the issue of overhealing and that the dps quality of downfall members will be greater than what I'm used to so I should try and step up threat.

My god, I didn't say I don't like sanctuary. I said it is a bad tradeoff for kings. Sanctuary reduced damage by 3% while kings gives 8% more health. I do sanctuary at any chance if I already have kings.

And to the other guy, do you really think I'm all that lazy when I spent the time attempting to make a detailed application, and considering all the changes others suggest? I just didn't care all that much about 12 stamina, especially considering in the next patch dragon's eyes won't be prismatic anymore andi 'll have to change them back to the bracers and such since they're blue gems. I have over 33k hp unbuffed, and while every bit counts, I'm not lacking in the hp department enough to be OCD about it.

I am happy to recieve criticism and help on my character, but I will not tolerate people getting pissy and insulting.

Calm Down mate. No one is

cromi — Fri, 06/26/2009 - 19:32

Calm Down mate. No one is personnally attacking you. This is a helpful community. The questions aren't to hurt you personally, take out your reputation, or am attacking your ethics in any way.

I don't care, Is not an acceptable excuse to laziness. If something is best this patch, 3.2 may not come out for another month or two, just like 3.1. And you never know what blizz team will do until it comes out.

You also say kings is better than sanc because it gives you more health. Health is good but would you go grab mail gear for the stam? No because you don't get the same benefit of armor. I am not a tank but I am pretty sure this is the basic thoughts. So you can see where he is coming from.

For you to give a response like that, no matter how frusturated or angry you have become with the responses. Is not going to help you. I told this to a hunter just a few days ago and am not going to give a large Talk on it. Do you really think that you would show this to a job interviewer. Other than that I'm not taking any more time to extrapulate.

Now you say for a healer to get agro in voa. He is doing something wrong. Whenever I do voa as a healer. I somehow grab agro from the ot. That is not me doing something wrong. That is the tank not doing his job. But many times the tank is doing things right. Shit happens. How do you do your best to make sure, a healer, Or my personal favirote, mage that goes high dps. Doesn't take agro instead of using a spell from what I know of pallys, must have a person holding agro for you to take them from it with righteous defense.

*Grasen was the one who brought up the job interview in the last app like you. I just brought up why he shouldn't have taken criticism that bad in response to a job interviewer. Wow I did just extrapulate more on the subject.

There's a fine line between

kitsuneshin — Fri, 06/26/2009 - 19:50

There's a fine line between constructive criticism and "go roll a warrior". I do understand that the comments, at least originally, were meant to be helpful but people were becoming more and more negative in their responses.

What you all view as laziness might actually be so if I were in this guild, or a decent one who did hard man or something challenging. For the last two weeks i've been on standby for guilds so i've been pugging, and before that I was in a guild that had trouble even getting 10 bosses down easy mode due to time and low dps. I had absolutely no reason to waste money further improving my gear when I easily went above and beyond what was expected in my role.

Your comment on the mail vs plate does not fit at all for sanct vs kings. Sanctuary does 3% mitigation every time I'm hit. Kings gives me 8% more hp which is equivilent to mitigation in tanking value. 8% more hp means I can survive harder hits, and those overheals from before are actually benefitting me. It isn't like it is only a little extra mitigation at the beginning. If you want to go even more into detail, kings also gives avoidance, parry, shield block value, and dps. It is by far superior.

My original application was like an interview. What is currently happening is a debate. I am not going to change my build because another player says it is better, I will discuss the benefits of both sides and come to my own conclusion. If you think an interview consists of you having to gain approval and obey all your fellow employees, you've never had a job before. Being a yesman is by far worse than being defensive.

And yes, the tank is not doing his job if you manage to pull the aggro off the tank in voa. it takes consecrate-HoW-exorcism to grab all 4 adds and not let heals take it. Heals are also supposed to go light until the mobs are in position, then everyone goes wild. Also, it is partially the healer's fault if they go all out in the beginning during the pull. I've MT'd and OT'd multiple times and never once had a problem like mobs getting loose in the raid.

healers pulling aggro off the MT

moriella — Fri, 06/26/2009 - 20:01

HI! I'm fully a buffed 3000+ spell power priest with the best gear on server. I have never ever once pulled aggro off epatrick in a raid. EVER. Dont take what he tells you with a grain of salt. He knows his stuff.

Then why does the 'ittle 2.2k

Disrupter — Sat, 06/27/2009 - 06:08

Then why does the 'ittle 2.2k healing tree pull aggro :(. HUH PAT! YOU WANT ME TO DIE!?

I don't let you die my

Epatrick — Sat, 06/27/2009 - 14:56

I don't let you die my little treekin, I HoP you because I like to put my hand on you <3

What I was pointing out that

cromi — Sat, 06/27/2009 - 07:04

What I was pointing out that he says Righteous defense was a bad spell. I was just putting it back through the line up, or at least see what he says if somebody gets agro.

Moriella, what you said kind

kitsuneshin — Fri, 06/26/2009 - 20:08

Moriella, what you said kind of proves my point. A tank properly doing his job won't let aggro loose in the raid, as he proves. I am not even trying to claim to be better than him or that he is wrong, only to say that those kind of things happen when everyone is playing properly is just irresponsible.

the inital pull on VoA with

Epatrick — Sat, 06/27/2009 - 01:07

the inital pull on VoA with the adds is all about style. i go for elegance. the mt goes in, i go through my inital exo/hor pull hit. this is two gcds. if i smash hotr/consecrate too early i risk hitting emalon and generating too much splash dmg and mucking up the pull. instead i let the back two adds aggro to a healer and as theyre running towards them i rd and then use my three bounce shield/hotr to cement them on me.
i love talking tankadin stuff and if you are actually serious about tanking, go to sites like maintankadin and learn more about it. my character's name is pudolski, feel free to msg me in game and we can chat. not tooting my own horn too much, but i know a bit about tanking. (first paladin to mt illidan when we were out of warrior tanks...i also tanked all of fathom lord because my healers rock.)

I'll talk to you sometime if

kitsuneshin — Sat, 06/27/2009 - 07:47

I'll talk to you sometime if you're on, since it is easier to discuss things in active conversation than in a forums.

With voa, generally the OT runs in first and pulls all 5 mobs using a consecrate and aoe spells. The MT taunts emalon, they separate, to opposite sides of the room, and voila. Between seal of light and block value and such, pallies can very easily handle all 5 mobs for a second while people get positioned and aggro builds up. Hell, in 10 mans i've tanked the 4 adds and the boss at the same time when the MT was fail.

I am very serious about tanking as well, and I've read the links posted. Some of them are useful, some not so much. Elitistjerks are much more detailed about statistics and value, I prefer them by a large margin. I never said any of you weren't knowledgable about tanking or weren't good tanks, only that I am as well.

while you talk about the

Grasen — Fri, 06/26/2009 - 19:10

while you talk about the primistic being changed next patch, i would like to remind you that the next patch isnt here yet, Downfall is pushing hard modes in full force, to have our drakes by the time the next patch hits. it aint about what changes next patch, it;s about showing up at your best NOW, Not gemming for the present because in a couple mo something changes does indeed make you look.....lazy,

Someone else can give you

Shihli — Fri, 06/26/2009 - 18:15

Someone else can give you kings.

Oh, of course. I always have

kitsuneshin — Fri, 06/26/2009 - 18:25

Oh, of course. I always have sanct and kings both if possible, he was saying to replace kings with sanct though. I changed my spec's layout as a friend pointed out that divinity is wasted due to how much overhealing is done and that with downfall's heals, SA might not be as needed. I won't really know what works until I run with you all sometime.

I do not plan to change my glyphs as of right now, as I haven't seen a good reason why yet. I just changed my head's hit rating gem to the prismatic dragon's eye and shoved a stam one in my bracers so that issue is fixed as well. That was more from laziness than lack of understanding XD.

Laziness is a turn off. Also

saedo — Fri, 06/26/2009 - 18:28

Laziness is a turn off.

Also Sanc reduces damage by 3%, hardly a survivability trade off.

Depending on the class hit is

Aurleas — Thu, 06/25/2009 - 16:24

Depending on the class hit is very valuable for tanks. I tank with a druid and i gemmed just enough hit to take me to the hit cap with a goat in my group. I definetly notice a difference with threat generation when im low on hit, for instance tanking hodir in my frost resist set i drop around 125 hit which in turn drops my tps by around 1500 (this could be due to the fact that all my threat is generated from physical damage). Imo hit is a must for my tanking class though i am unfamiliar with paladin tanking maybe grov or one of the other df pally tanks could shed some light on this.

I'd say putting a Prismatic

saedo — Thu, 06/25/2009 - 15:27

I'd say putting a Prismatic Gem in your bracer BS socket is a bad idea. Prismatics should be used to gain extra socket bonuses where you otherwise wouldn't have gotten, and there's none there to be obtained. But, looks like there's no gem in your shoulders, and it's a yellow slot, probably best in there while you shove another solid in the bracer's slot.

Also, do you really need to gem hit rating as a tank?

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Poll

What do you think about no flying for an entire expansion?

YES) It makes me feel more immersed in the game lore.

15%

YES) It encourages more PvP! (Please explain how in comments)

YES) I miss riding my ground mounts.

MAYBE) If you make all of my flying mounts able to be ground too.

MAYBE) if ground mounts are sped up to 200% speed (or higher)

26%

NO) I don't have enough time when I'm on to be riding everywhere

NO) I have spent too much time getting various levels of flying to be wasting it.

11%

NO) It encourages more PVP! (please explain in the comments)

NO) I love flying.

19%

Total votes: 74