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Kitten Brigade 25man: Crusader's Coliseum, Vault of Archavon, Onyxia's Lair

Raid Zone: 
Crusader's Coliseum, Vault of Archavon, Onyxia's Lair

You guys know the drill.

Wed, 10/14/2009 - 11:30
Wed, 10/14/2009 - 15:00
9 individuals signed up
Shihli
saedo
primistic
Eziio
Keisjaa
talisdar
Gares of War
acetylcoa
Katibug
  • Kitten Brigade
  • 25 Man
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saedo's picture

Parses: 

saedo — Wed, 10/14/2009 - 22:03

Parses:  http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-64y7N3dIjsGmHF5F/

Desteran's picture

The fact that you didnt bid I

Desteran — Wed, 10/14/2009 - 09:05

The fact that you didnt bid I dont think is the problem but the reasoning behind it is. "I am waiting for heroic" is not a valid reason. The amount of gear we see every week (that were still rarely DEing) means you will have the opportunity to get geared and at a much quicker pace if you use your points as opposed to hording them waiting for that 1 drop. But fact remains, were not going to all be in full 258 when IC comes out so get it while the gettins good.

Simple rule of thumb...dont pass on upgrades unless out of the kindness of your heart you want to pass it b/c its a bigger upgrade for the next person in points. Youre not being singled out. I've seen gear dumped on people and their points nuked that were in same situation you were last night.

We know youre a good player Sturm and thats probably a good reason you get invites :-D

getting kicked from raid

caramun — Tue, 10/13/2009 - 20:41

since when do people get told what they can or cant roll on? i understand its an upgrade, i know that its an upgrade. i wasnt just holding out on points forever until i got a heroic justicebringer. my weapon can wait for all i care. i need to upgrade my other gear. i already have a 232 weapon. i would rather have a cloak or a pair of bracers or a belt or perhaps a ring or trinket than a weapon.i used Ironsoul all the way through most of the hardmodes in ulduar until the earthshaper dropped for me after about 2 months. i know what i want, and justicebringer was on the bottom of my list. i need to upgrade my 219 cloak or my belt before i thnk about wasting points on a 245 weapon, even though the weapon is good its not what i wanted to spend my points on. its not what i need. i would have gladly spent my points on other things. making it out to seem like im out to hurt the raid by not upgrading when ive gotten 3 upgrades in the past week? doesnt make much sense to me. if i was gimping the raid so bad why not just give me the weapon and say its going for a good cause instead of bitching about it going to offspec ? by kicking me u passed me over for 2 huge upgrades i needed from the last 2 bosses. why have a loot system if ur just gonna tell people what to spend their hours on? im sure whoever got it for offspec was a lot more happy than i would have been getting it.for my main. seeing 35 hours of raid time lost for something that i didnt want  isnt the way  to go. please dont make me out to be some dumbass or idiot for knowing what i want/need and in somewhat of an order i would like to get it in. if my dps is a problem then i dunno what to tell u guys. the fact that i can push the numbers i do at 2 and 4 FPS is amazing to me. not to mention not dying to stupid shit like fires and all that nonsense. u guys know i dont fuck around. my performance shows it. so why the hostility ? please let me know whats up

Katibug's picture

AP vs NAP vs NRP

Katibug — Wed, 10/14/2009 - 13:11

I don't think anyone has mentioned this, but there is a little confusion about point pools...

Passing on a weapon upgrade (which uses NAP - Non Armor Points) for a belt or cloak (Granted the cloak is NAP, but the belt is AP).  i think you've got your point pools a little confused.  Yes, you may have a crappy cloak, but getting a weapon upgrade kind of cancels that out, doesn't it?

The point system is there so people don't hold out for items.  It's designed to spend your points and actually be somewhat greedy.  Back in the MC days we used DKP and people would hold off on bidding on upgrades because they were waiting for the super awesome trinket with a 2% drop rate off Ragnaros.  All in all, they ended up falling behind their raiders who spent their points on upgrades and were usually the first to die on boss fights or were at the bottom of the dps/healing charts.  Our point system is designed to not let this type of thing happen.  Essentially, you just tried to hoard your "DKP" for a better item that may or may not drop sometime in the future.

I feel bad that you were in

Kwondre — Wed, 10/14/2009 - 09:55

I feel bad that you were in one of those twillight zone situations where no one would have noticed you passing if someone else bid on it. And Justicebringer is a kind of item you can't let get DE'ed till everyone has it main spec and offspec. You won't see a single caster pass on 245 Reign of the Unliving or a Melee DPS pass on 245 Death's Verdict just cause they're waiting for heroic.

It seems like 99.5% of the time, you can use your discretion to allocate your points as you see fit - but last night was that 0.5% where you were on the spot. And in most cases, the onus will be on you to make a good decision for yourself. Doesn't mean the system is broken. So from that standpoint, it sucks to be forced anything, but can you really watch that thing get DE'ed?

But decision making wise...man...I cannot get behind your logic. I did a little rawr'ing on your char and you are so over melee hit cap, that Earthshaper is a major drag on your DPS potential. Additionally, you say the Cloak (Drape of Fuming Anger) and the Belt (Belt of the Titans) are the two pieces you need to upgrade first. That's its really not true...math-wise

Based on your current gear (assuming optimal gemming):

Normal Justicebringer DPS - Earthshaper DPS = 185 DPS

BIS iLVL 258 Cloak DPS - Drape of Fuming Anger DPS = 72 DPS

BIS iLVL 258 Belt DPS - Belt of the Titans DPS = 43 DPS

So that means even if you upgraded your Belt AND your Cloak to the BIS ilvl 258 gear, it still wouldn't make up for the DPS difference between Normal 245 Justicebringer vs Earthshaper.

Besides, upgrading your cloak before your Weapon would nuke your points so you'd be last in line for heroic justicebringer anyway.

DPS wise, doesn't matter what iLVL your other gear is...the biggest dps upgrade for you period is normal justicebringer.

Honestly, what you should be

Ghli — Wed, 10/14/2009 - 00:27

Honestly, what you should be gearing up is to gear as if you were gearing in normal 25-man mode, not heroic 25-man mode. Yeah, it would be very nice to get the heroic versions of all items in game, but thats not being realistic. Think it about this way, the best tier 9 armor items in game are not ilevel 245 gear, they're ilevel 258 gear. And where do the ilevel 258 armor gear come from? They don't come via trophys and tokens, they come from via tokens from a box after we finish killing heroic anub. You're better off if you have a list to make all the heroic version drops that you "want" and mark them as "this is stuff that would be nice to get but there's a high chance I won't get it". A prime example, my list of unhittable gear has heroic versions of gear that would help greatly, but it's not realistic for me to get, as they are items our tanks probably need anyways

If I did what you were doing with the heroic version of justicebringer for trinkets, I would be stuck sitting on [44015] waiting for the perfect trinket which was [45490]. This trinket never dropped a third or fourth time. I then got [45292] and [45929]. ToC5 man released, and [45292] got replaced with [47215], and even these trinkets got replaced with what I'm using now.

There's a big difference between people who are "farming" points with lesser gear to get a heroic version upgrade, versus people who have better gear and are waiting for smaller upgrades from heroic mode. The better people are doing better damage in the first place, while the other people are being "carried" for a lack of a better word. Simply put, be greedy and get you gear early and often. NRP is intended for toys/offset gears, not your "backup" point pool to grab main spec gears. It's not fair for people like Garreth, Dangly, or Pudo to eye things that they can get for their offspec (dps) for NRP when a main spec bids using their NRP points. The same goes with tanking gear. I usually pass NRP'ed tanking gear to Noboru first before I take it as my off spec, as he's a tank in a 10 man, and I don't currently have a permanent 10 man raid spot for now. I faintly remember you bidding NRP for [45450], but I don't remember you having a tanking spec. Do i care about this item anymore? No, it wasn't worth complaining about it then or now, and this happened more than 2 months ago.

garreth's picture

Passing on an upgrade of that

garreth — Tue, 10/13/2009 - 22:27

Passing on an upgrade of that caliber displays a fundamental misunderstanding of personal and team progression.

Shihli's picture

First off, non-heroic

Shihli — Tue, 10/13/2009 - 22:10

First off, non-heroic Justicebringer isn't a 232 weapon. It's a 245. It's your 2nd BiS weapon.

Secondly, your weapon is your single biggest upgrade. Yeah, you've got a 219 cloak. Or a bad belt. But you passed on your single most influential upgrade in a situation where it should be a no-brainer. Holding out for upgrades that *may not* drop is not something we encourage, particularly when you pass on gear that *did* drop that *IS* an upgrade.

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