Lock break
Lilpuddinpop — Tue, 04/13/2010 - 10:13
Last night in attendance in KB raid we had present 3 locks, so i wanted to make a comparison to finally decide best spec for dps. The worldoflogs parses show us the difference in our dps + our stong/weakpoints.
First thing you will notice is that the dps between the 3 classes is quite similar in our parses. BUT, the greatest dps was easily destruction. Destruction was consistently about 1-1.5k higher then affliction on any fight which is so considerable, I am wondering why we are even bothering with aff lock in raid. Yes some fights may be more running around, but all we have to do is look at the demo lock(another stand still caster like destro) to see how much variation there would be in dps.
With a comparison of rotface(a kite fight) and festergut(a caster fight) we see ~800 dps increase. which is relatively small. comparing the aff to destro from these fights though, there is ~1400-1500dps increase. Now if the dps increase for demo is so slight, I would see no reason why destro dps would be any different. This begs the question if aff lock is really worth speccing into at all? http://elitistjerks.com/f80/t48311-simulationcraft_warlocks_3_3_3_numbers/ would state that affliction locks would have top dps, but this would be in a perfect world where fights were boring and no one had to move.
Affliction locks, like demo locks, are dependent on the Sbolt spam between keeping their dots up for roughly 50% of their dps. Thier dots do significantly more damg then demo, while demo is dependent on thier castables moreso. In kite fights(rotface, sindragosa) I see the appeal of Affliction, but numbers have shown(assuming our locks have a perfect rotation) that the dps between demo and Aff are almost exactly the same. (rotface fight last night had a difference of ~100 dps between the 2 classes which can be attributed to gear difference)
Another point I would like to make is about demo lock dps. for most of a fight, demo lock dps is not even comparable to the other 2 specs consistently about 2-3k dps lower. however, for the last 35%(thanks to decimation http://www.wowhead.com/spell=63158) demo dps is unsurpassed spiking as high as 20K+. This makes the overlooked demo lock top dps in certain situations as well. Putricide and sindragosa come in mind. I honestly think that having 3 demo locks for sindragosa will help us immensely with the final phase.
My Look into this has shown me that the only 2 viable classes for warlock dps really are destro + demo with affliction being very situational. I would really like to post some dps numbers on a dummy or to have a better review, perhaps have all all 3 lock specs present in raid this week.
AAAAANDD...I'm back. First, I
Scaron — Tue, 04/13/2010 - 14:07AAAAANDD...I'm back.
First, I want to say how happy I am to have this conversation. I think discussions about raid-make-up and warlock specs are exceedingly fun. Also, I'm aware that there are warlocks far more knowledgeable than I in this guild, and I am totally expecting to stand corrected. That said, I'm going to share my opinion--hopefully both helpfully and diplomatically.
"First thing you will notice is that the dps between the 3 classes is quite similar in our parses. BUT, the greatest dps was easily destruction. Destruction was consistently about 1-1.5k higher then affliction on any fight which is so considerable, I am wondering why we are even bothering with aff lock in raid. Yes some fights may be more running around, but all we have to do is look at the demo lock(another stand still caster like destro) to see how much variation there would be in dps."
I'd like to point out that in no completed kills from the parses from last night did you ever have a comparison of all three specs of warlock. This makes dps comparisons exceedingly difficult. In my opinion, this makes your tentative conclusion that "it might not even be worth bothering have an aff lock in raid", a hasty one. Here are a few things to keep in mind.
Affliction locks do bring SOME raid utility. They're debuffing the boss with a 5% crit chance via imp shadowbolt. This is enormously beneficial to a demo lock when the boss' health is sub 35%...it allows you to focus on spamming SF and not having to worry about keeping up your SB debuff.
Another thing to note is that gear level is a MAJOR factor which determines which warlock spec has the highest theoretical dps. For BiS ToC level gear, destro actually produces a higher theoretical top number than does affliction...where affliction really shines is after you've gathered some substantial ICC gear. Depending on your gearing you may CURRENTLY be better off as destro, but at some point locks may be best served by making a switch to affliction.
This next one I want to approach carefully. Frankly, I'm doubtful I could stack up to either Diky or Constantinne playing as destro. They're probably much better at it than I. Players who mastered the warlock class in BC tend to be great as destro. But that does not translate to perfect affliction play.
"I see the appeal of Affliction, but numbers have shown(assuming our locks have a perfect rotation) that the dps between demo and Aff are almost exactly the same."
I'm not sure that SimCraft is a perfect tool--I'm pretty sure it's not. But it seems like you're saying that SimCraft is simply ranking warlock specs incorrectly. At the risk of being perceived as an EJ fanboy, I'm hesitant to assume that when my dps as affliction is lower than my dps as destro that EJ is wrong...I'm assuming it's because I haven't appropriately mastered my spec (and I haven't, quite honestly).
Rather than concluding that affliction is situational, I think my conclusion is that many warlocks (myself included) haven't mastered the fights AND the affliction playstyle so as to truly milk all of the dps out of the spec. Maybe for the time being that does mean that affliction is untenable for you (us). However, I think that concluding that it's just not a good spec is shortsighted and could impede, rather than help, progression.
I will also say, on the other side of that coin, that we see a great deal more fights which demand situational spec shifts. Now that we have access to dual specs, it isn't entirely surprising that Blizzard would gear some fights toward, say, affliction, and other toward destro. But again, that demotes destro to situational--which I think it is.
Re: Demo dps. You won't get any argument from me here. In fact, I've been singing the praises of demo for the past few patches. However, I do think that you get the most from a demo lock when they're running with another affliction lock in raid--for reasons I've specified above. Further, related to this, I think you might underrate the firepower of a demo lock. Sure, we're a support / buff class. However, demo locks are capable of doing a shit-ton of damage, so if they're close to an affliction lock, it might not be because affliction is so bad, it might be because demo is so good. Some have even questioned the value of bringing more than one demo lock to a raid.
fully agree to some
Lilpuddinpop — Tue, 04/13/2010 - 14:28Yes I do believe we will need a few weeks worth of parses to see the differences in dps. we will also need to see dps as it scales with gear(the locks in KB have lesser gear then salmon for reasons of absense and I switched mains not but 1 month ago from my feral kitty)
Having an aff lock in raid does help us demo locks with our SF spam for the last 35% of fight, but I am trying to find out if its worth it to have the aff lock/demo/destro of our 3 locks vs. the 2 destro/demo lock. Is one SF cast missed to get our sbolt buff worth the potential decrease of the other 2 locks? This begs the question still further is destro truly better dps then affliction.
We never had a aff/demo/destro direct comparison, which is something I would definatley like to see this week. Say on a fight like festergut/rotface.
Also, yes demo dps, with better gear(ie. more haste) scales to numbers KB raid has not seen on warlocks. From looking at demo dps numbers in salmon raid..... we are being put to shame!
saying this, /bow scaron+watchesup
Ok, so being the
Scaron — Wed, 04/14/2010 - 11:18Ok, so being the experimentalist that I am, I wanted to do a little test. Here's what I did--and yes, I know that this is less controlled than SimCraft, but I don't care, I wanted to see what the differences would be for affliction vs. demonology specs at the target dummy.
Here's my setup:
Using only Fel Armor and a Spellstone for both Demo and Affliction.
Using Fel Hound as affy pet and Fel Guard as demo pet.
All gear stayed the same between the two runs.
On the Heroic target (so Fel Guard's cleave didn't artificially inflate numbers)
Obviously, I was getting only the Fel Intellect buff for affliction, but DP for demo.
6 minute test for each spec.
3% short of hit cap (but this was true for tests of both specs)
No one else was debuffing boss.
Did NOT use Decimate execute phase OR Drain Soul execute phase.
No pots of wild magic.
My end numbers for the 6 minute test run were affliction = 7101 dps while demo ended up at 6030 dps.
This was the case EVEN THOUGH I was getting a WAY better buff as demo in DP than I was with Affliction (Fel Intelligence). In short, in a raid setting I would expect that the gap between affliction and demonology would only get bigger. (For example, I did a similar test last night with Aurleas' boomkin grouped with me and I ended up with about 700 more dps...with just a boomkin's debuffs--not including MotW.)
I still think Affliction is a far more viable spec than it's getting credit for. I don't think I'll be able to switch back any time soon, unless Watchesup wants to switch to demo ;), but I still think Affliction...as the SimCraft numbers also suggest...is the top theoretical AND PRACTICAL personal dps spec for a warlock, if you have the gear to support it.
if ((bosses == dead) &&
Tankard — Tue, 04/13/2010 - 13:25if ((bosses == dead) && (expansion == onitsway)) {
maximizingDPS = pointless;
}
;-)
what if ((bosses=/=dead)?
Scaron — Tue, 04/13/2010 - 14:07what if ((bosses=/=dead)?
max dps
Lilpuddinpop — Tue, 04/13/2010 - 13:54considering we have not even begun heroic icc 25's, there is still a lot of room for improvement and review.
I have thoughts on this, and
Scaron — Tue, 04/13/2010 - 10:54I have thoughts on this, and will look at parses later this afternoon to provide some data to defend my assertions.
In short, I think I disagree. I think an affliction lock is an important spec to bring to raid for a number of reasons which I will elaborate upon.
But, for the moment, I have to go tell students about computers as a communication technology.