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Minimum EP For Loot! (Raid Man Hug)

Elapsed — Fri, 03/01/2013 - 19:33

As the title says, This post will be regarding the start of minimum EP requirements for raid Man Hug to recieve loot! If you don't know how our loot system works, please go over to The EPGP article I wrote up and read before continuing here.

As of right now (5.1) we have no minimum EP in place to earn loot. That means that the guy who's been raiding since Man Hug formed up a couple of months ago and the guy who just joined us today have very equall chances on an item (presuming the person who's been raiding for 2 months has a low PR)

As of 5.2 (Throne Of Thunder Patch) We will institute the Minimum EP Threshold of 10,000EP. What that means is for a person to be eligible for loot rolls in the 25 man must have 10k EP at least. That equates to 10 farm boss kills, or 5 first time boss kills (not that much really) What this does for the established raiders is reward us! We don't have to worry about the new guy coming to raid and taking the loot we desire. It also let's us know who's been really putting in the time to raid with us.

Now in a previous post I made (New Guild Ranks and You!) I very intentionally didn't mention something I have in the works. A new Elite Raider rank, or Core Raider rank. This rank is coming soon and stay tuned as I will be launching this with 5.2 as well once all the pre-reqs are worked out.

 

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Elapsed's picture

EPGP Our Points/Loot System

Elapsed — Thu, 01/03/2013 - 17:42

When tasked with finidng an apropiate loot system for our new 25 man raid in MoP I found myself returning to something I knew from my time before <Downfall>: EPGP

EPGP is a loot system in which both your effort and the loot you take are taken into account when rolling on an item. Here's how it works:

  1. EP = Effort Points = What points you have accrued from your time with the raid via showing up on time, killing bosses, first kills, or even sitting on standby waiting for a spot in raid.
  2. GP = Gear Points = A value assigned to each epic item that drops and you recieve. An addon determines this automatically based off of item ilevel.
  3. PR = Priority Ratio = A ratio of EP to GP that determines who gets priority for loot.

The basic math structure is quite simple: EP/GP = PR

EPGP IN ACTION

Say I have 10000 EP from raiding for the last week and Atar has 20000 because I missed the previous raid week (made up numbers may not be true to a weeks raiding). Let's say we both have 1500 gp.

  • Elapsed's PR: 10000/1500 = 6.67PR
  • Atar's PR: 20000/1500 = 13.34pr

Then we kill Gara'jal and Circuit of the Frail Soul (worth 415GP) drops and we both roll. Because of Atar actually raided on the wipe nights to kill Gara'jal he has a much higher EP and therefore a much higher PR. He wins that easily. My PR stays the same but let us see what Atar's PR is at now

  • Atar's PR: 20000/1915 = 10.44 PR

Next we kill The Spirit Kings and each get 1000 EP for the kill and on the drop is a Mindshard Drape (worth 415 gp) and we both want it again.

  • Elapsed's PR: 11000/1500 = 7.34 PR
  • Atar's PR: 21000/1915 = 10.96PR

Notice how Elapsed's PR went up more than Atar's due to the kill. And again Atar wins the item!

  • Atar's new PR: 21000/2330 = 9.01

Now Elegon dies, its our first kill so we each get 2000 EP for it. On the drop is a Light of the Cosmos (worth a whoping 1037 GP)

  • Elapsed's PR: 13000/1500 = 8.67PR
  • Atar's PR: 23000/2330 = 9.87PR

Atar this time just barely wins, but see what happens to his PR vs Elapsed's on this set:

  • Atar's PR: 23000/3367 = 6.87PR

Quite the hit there, now the next item that drops is clearly a win for Elapsed, and showing that being there for raid on time and prepared can make a difference for loot every night.

You can see how in just a few loots and kills someone who missed a week in raid wont be completely behind the curve when it comes to gear.

DECAY

Every week both EP and GP numbers will be reduced by 10% (on Tuesdays) so that all PRs will remain the same but will help with keeping numbers down to reasonable levels. 

So some basic things to know for raid (real numbers now):

  1. First kills = 2000 EP
  2. Farm Kills (anything after the first kill unless deemed so by officers) = 1000 EP
  3. Wipe Night (aka no kills just working on progression) = 4000 EP
  4. The mininum EP you need to be considered for a roll is 10000EP (Updated for 5.2)

Standby raiders are considered and are granted 50% of EP granted to raiders (as long as they are online and ready to fill in instantly when needed). Other EP numbers may be considered as needed and will be anounced to the raid when it happens

GP VALUES

All items right now are determined by EPGP and numbers can be given on a case by case basis.

Also if an item goes to offspec the GP cost of said item will be waived for the winner of a 1-100 roll. SHOULD a person be using their offspec to help the raid on a certain fight (aka a healer or tank going DPS for a specific fight every week) then they will have priority on getting offspec items. once again that is at officers discretion and can be openly discussed with me on a cast by case basis.

I hope this sheds some light on the loot system, I will be on as much as I can over the next week should someone have any questions.

 

Check out your points over at EPGP <Downfall> and even look at your gear history (first night gear history is a little wonky

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starstalker's picture

Junior the Turd

starstalker — Mon, 05/25/2009 - 21:57

Junior the Turd

Turd Burglar.

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garreth's picture

Loot Priority

garreth — Mon, 11/19/2007 - 13:44

Let's talk about loot priority for a moment. We have a set of rules and if you stick by them, drama is minimized. In our years of raiding experience, there is no other single form of contention as bad as Loot Priority. Raids without a clear distribution hierarchy that all raiders agree to are doomed to failure. By joining a Downfall raid, you agree to the following:

  1. If you're brought in to DPS, you get priority on DPS gear.
  2. If you're brought in to tank, you get priority on tanking gear, but NOT dps gear.
  3. If you're brought in to heal, you get priority on healing gear, but NOT tanking gear or dps gear.

"But!" You may cry out with the anguish of a thousand nub sobs. "How is my paladin/warrior/priest/shaman/druid supposed to get his pewpew/clangclang set?! Am I just supposed to heal/tank for the rest of my WoW career?!"

This is an easy answer. Yes. Yes, you are. If that bothers you, raidquit get an arena team going and go PvP for your dps gear. We each raid as very specific cogs in a very powerful machine. If just one of us doesn't do his job properly, the machine fails. I am a healer. I know how incredibly important my role is. I take great pride in the fact that I'm a rare and talented player. So should all you healers and tanks.

Each situation requires you to ask "What role am I in the raid RIGHT NOW?"  And, as with all things in Downfall, if there are issues regarding loot it is ultimately up to the raid leader at hand for final decision.

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garreth's picture

What dkp/points/loot system does Downfall use?

garreth — Thu, 11/15/2007 - 14:53

Downfall uses a loot system developed by Strangeteeth of (server here) called FuriousRaid. FuriousRaid (FR) is a modified and automated extension of the suicide kings style of loot distribution. That is, points are earned for time spent in a raid at a predetermined rate. The person with the most points wins the item and all his points are subtracted to zero. He then immediately starts earning points once again. All point tracking is handled by the FuriousRaid addon.

The Downfall version of this system encourages even loot distribution, loot for new raiders, respect for core raiders and fair hand-out of off-spec gear. It goes like this:

  1. We use three separate pools of points:
    1. AP: "Armor Points" which are used for things like Tier set pieces and standard armor slots like helm, legs, gloves, etc.
    2. NAP: "Non-Armor Points" which are used for non-armor pieces like weapons, necks, trinkets, offhands, cloaks, etc.
    3. NRP: "Non-Raid Points" which are only bid out once everyone passes on an item that went to AP or NAP first.  Non-raid points are "trash" points used to bid on items you wouldn't use in a raid - things like 2h swords for holy paladins.
  2. Raiders receive a point in each pool for every hour they are in raid while point tracking is turned on.  Points are accrued hourly from when the loot leader clicks his timer, not when a raider joins raid.  That is, if a raider spends one hour in raid then he has earned a point in the AP pool, the NAP pool and the NRP pool.
  3. When an item drops, the loot leader determines what pool that item belongs to.  For example, if a [Twilight Mist] drops, it would be "bid" out on the NAP pool (non-armor).
  4. The loot leader then spams the chat window with a link of the item being bid plus a long list of all people in raid and their points for that particular pool. 
  5. It is then the job of the raider to whisper the loot leader about his interest in the item.  Something as simple as "interested" will register the raider in the system.  I use a clickable macro that looks like this "/w Quisjaa bewbs" so all I have to do to whisper Quisjaa (my raid's loot leader) is click a button.
  6. After about 10 or 15 seconds, bids will close and the loot leader will print out the list of all the people that bid on the item.  Highest bidder wins.
  7. After we determine that the item is appropriate for the winner's class/spec, the item is auto-looted to the winner and his points are reduced to zero in the pool that the item was bid out of.  In our example of [Twilight Mist] above, the winning raider would have his NAP points reduced to zero. 
  8. If there are no bids for an item out of either the AP or NAP point pools, then the item "goes to NRP".  This is an opportunity for our raiders to bid on off-spec and "fun" gear.  This is where our healers get dps gear and where our dps gets to pick up something "for pvp".  No matter if the item is armor or trinket or weapons, it goes out on NRP to the highest bidder regardless of spec.  

 Some caveats to the system:

  1. Bid winners are encouraged to use their brains.  Passing on a marginal upgrade may reward them in the long run since their pool will remain intact.  Or it may bite them in the ass if nothing drops they can actually use their points on.  Use your brain.
  2. The raid leader can veto anything.  We trust our raiders, but sometimes there needs to be quick decisions to avoid drama.
  3. We expect our raiders to have done their homework on what gear is good for their spec.  If that sword really is the best weapon a hunter can use while all the dps warriors want it, the hunter better be prepared to explain why.  As in, explain why using math and coefficients.  We used to use a ruleset that went like this: Usable by ► Applied dps ► Stats.  Lately we've been quite open as itemization has gotten more generic in 3.0 and beyond.
  4. Downfall generally runs two 25-man raids (soon to be three).  Each raid runs it's own three pools of points. If you raid with Raid:Salmon you earn points only for Salmon, not for Kitten Brigade and visa versa.  Points do not transfer between raids.  However, if you have to sub in for another raid, you can of course earn points in that raid.  
  5. If you are considered a geared, experienced and viable fill-in you are allowed to whisper the loot leader the word "wl" (without quotes) to be put on the auto-waitlist feature.  On this list, you'll accrue points exactly like the people in the raid.  This feature is to encourage our fill ins to log in to help out, as well as to take the sting out of having to sit a raider for composition.  You are required to stay on that character the duration of the evening or to inform us of the alt you'll be on instead.  "Waitlisting" and then logging out for the night will result in your points being deleted and you being banned from the waitlist feature. 
  6. Do not attempt to game the system by anticipating an item going to NRP that you'll use frequently and then trying to win it on your NRP points, thus saving you from burning your AP or NAP points.  We've seen this before and it's pretty obvious.  We'll inform you that we'll nuke your appropriate pool to make up the difference.  
  7. Non-enhancing items like mounts, bags and such are rolled and points are not wiped for the winner.  New raiders will sometimes be asked to refrain from rolling on these sought after rarities.
  8. High-drama items, like legendaries, will be rolled between a pre-selected group of hardcore, dedicated and dependable raiders.  The goal is to bring all loot won in a raid right back into the raid the next day.  These are the people that have proven over, literally, years of raiding that they will do that. The appropriate pool will be wiped once the item is distributed.  If the item is part of a set or series (Glaives/Atiesh), the first winner will be rewarded with the subsequent pieces until completion. 
  9. You get ONE spec.  That is generally what you're in the raid for. Hoever, we've asked a few dedicated and talented players to consider two specs that we alternate between as a raid. These players get first shot (AP/NAP pool bidding) for their main spec, but get priority bidding when an item goes to NRP. As an example, Noboru is considered a dps warrior first for the Kitten Brigade raid and a prot warrior second. Therefore, he gets to bid on dps plate and 2h swords out of his AP/NAP pools. However, when a tanking shield drops and all the tanks pass on it out of NAP, Noboru will have first dibs on it out of the NRP pool. 

So that's how Downfall does loot.  FuriousRaid has been very good to us for nearly two years.  There's next to no drama, loot is spread evenly, it's relatively quick and it's damn simple once you've seen it in action. 

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garreth's picture

Downfall Loot Distribution

garreth — Thu, 11/15/2007 - 14:43

/downfall-furiousraid-loot-system

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