I of many alts think this is a good thing for our raids....and stand up to say NO ISSUE!

**While it do wish that my alts could see time in 25 man content...it is for selfish reasons...not selfless as Shihli is being...so it will just not happen...period...end of story.

I agree with Grasen.  I think that if LF1M doesn't down Kael by Saturday, a LF1Ham kill on sunday would resolve this issue for the most part.  Shihli says that once Luchs is attuned to Hyjal/BT, that he will not 25-man Luchs unless specifically requested to by Atar or Garreth.  With that in mind, his toon SHOULD be off the table at that time, and not even thought of unless the need for a healer arises.

Here is a question though:  If Hamfist needs a healer, and Luchs was the only option available (assuming Luchs is already attuned by this point), how long would hamfist keep Luchs around until kicking him from raid in favor of shihli's main once again?  If Luchs is only a "tight situations only" toon, how long would this interim period last if several healers wowquit etc?

If Luchs had been attuned when Hamfist was looking for healers, how would that have affected Cisper going Holy?

Just some thoughts. 

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1.  Does Shihli wanna see BT/MH on his alt for gear? NO

2.  Does Shihli's alt take gear from LF1M raiders? NO

3.  Does Shihli care about Raid:Hamfist and LF1M like the raid members are part of his dysfunctional family (not saying your family is dysfunctional...just that we are). YES

For those of you who don't see what Shihli is trying to do as good for the raid, step back and think about it for a moment.  How many times have I been called into Hamfist since I left???  The fact that I'm called in say there need to be MORE HEALERS.  Shihli is only trying to help provide that for the GOOD OF THE RAID.  If you think for one minute he's gonna go all Crossgrip on you and take your phat lootz for his alt, then you don't know Shi at all.

Yes Starhack can heal, yes Dynasty can tank...yes I have a bajillion alts that can dps...but have we all put the work in and tried really hard to make sure we got those alts attuned for purely selfless reasons without affecting our normal raids?  NO.  Shihli has. 

Luchs is no different then Pudo.  Alts do serve a purpose in some cases.  This is one of those cases...why do you praise Pudo and torch Luchs???  It's not a popularity contest people...it's a RAID...What does the raid need? Sometimes it needs a prot pally, sometimes it needs an extra healer. 

Attune Luchs so you don't have to call Aidin into raid to steal phat lootz from Garreth....thus making her feel guilty.  If you want to attune your alts, roll a healer and put the work in...otherwise quit trying to burn Shihli at the stake for looking out for his fellow raiders. 

I'm going to have to put this in for Shihli's sake - I have done ZA, Kara, SSC, and now some TK with Luchs. It takes alot of reservation to look at a peice of gear and say, "No, you take it, you need it more!" even on an alt. I have seen Luchs passing on gear like this all the time. Heck, I've even seen him (in 10-mans where there aren't rules) pass up off-specish "toys" on Shihli so someone can take it for their main spec. (Some instance with a [Nathrezim Mindblade] keeps coming to the back of my mind, but I will conveniently forget who took that one from Popple.)

I don't recall Luchs EVER taking a peice of gear during an LF1M raid. It may have happened once or twice, but if so, it must have been something nobody else needed, or I'd remember the drama. This doesn't nullify the alt issue, just please don't think Shihli is greedy about raiding so he can get more gear for Luchs - his history just doesn't support that claim.

Again, Garreth, I can't commit to Thursdays because I already run my own raid then.  What's more, it's me asking to commit my ALT over potential raiders on their MAINS.  I will not take that place from them.

I'm going to lunch, when I come back I hope to see more discussion, and less villainizing.

Times do change, Gares.  I'm only trying to help.  Was Crossgrip trying to help?

Because of the apparent problem people have with me trying to get an alt attuned in the spirit of helping everyone out.  Now everyone's alt deserves a ride, simply because a few have gotten attuned already and one has been preparing for it for months now.

Take this with a grain of salt, but everyone gears up their alt.  I know very well that Star can heal on his druid.  I have seen him do fairly well on charts for his first time in SSC.  Not voting for him or anything, I am putting alts in prospective.

 I recall many people, including you Shihli, say they will never let their toon see T5 content or above.  Well, it certainly has changed hasn't it?  This is not meant to be too mean, but let the damn truth be told. 

I HATE ALTS

I had to deal with Crossgrip switching out his characters everytime he maxed out itemization.  Oh look, I am not a tank but a rogue, now I am a mage, now I am a druid, now I am a priest, now I am warlock, now I am a hunter.

I feel it is a waste of my time to help someone gear up an alt in the same content that I would like to gear up/compete.

In reality, if you were to ask anyone if they would like to bring their alt into SSC, they would love to.  In their mind, they have geared up their alt TO PLAY end game.  The only reason they do not, is self restraint. 

Why doesn't Nuitarin bring in one of his three other characters?  I think Nuitarin is one of the most intelligent players of any class in guild (sorry if you did not wish to be use as an example).  I have never once heard him ask for anyone of his alts ever to grace SSC or TK.  The option is technically available to him, but he chooses not too.  I respect that. Many people choose not to do it. 

I think exceptions occur if a person goes out of their way to help the guild with their alt.  I hear legions of people rant and rave for Pudolski to tank for them, his skill is legendary.  I see him PUG as well.  A person who is completely selfless can have the option I think. 

I'll state this again, since it's something I see a lot in "arguing for arguments sake".

If you've brought up your alt in this thread as a "Well, why can't my alt come?" statement, you better be doing so with honest and earnest desire. Otherwise you're throwing out hypotheticals with no actual relevance.

That said, I see two other alts with BT aspirations: Dynasty and Starhack.

I think what we're coming down to here is a test of wills.

• Will Starhack and Dynasty actually, legitimately try for a Vashj/Kael/Alar chain? No.
• Did Luchs? Yes.
• Is Luchs almot done and can he bring a lot to the raid that he's attending for this? Yes.
• Does this affect Hamfist? For 1.5 hours on a Wednesday night that we simply switched with Grasen. So, no.
• Does this eventually benefit everyone? Yes.
• Would the raid crucify Garreth if we had to cancel Hamfist again because of lack of healers and blame him for not having enough foresight to attune more? Yes (Yay for two BT resto druids emo'ing out to a different server without informing us)
• Does Shihli play almost every single day? Yup.
• Would Luchs be able to bail out Hamfist for a few hours until Clos eventually logged in or Cisper woke up from her drug-induced coma? Yup.
• Would he then hop right back to his main for pewpew dps? Yup.

I guess THAT is what Shihli is trying to say. I really don't care for the "What ifs" and "Why can't my alts..". Don't bring it up unless you're willing to follow through. Do I want to encourage more Luchs's? Fuck no. Has this sort of thing saved us in the past? Yes. Has it also fucked us in the past? You bet!

From an LF1M standpoint I will mention a few things:

1. It has been nice on a few fights to have a more experienced raider help give out some pointers.

2. I don't see a problem with Luchs coming to LF1M, but I think he needs to have absolute last place priority versus any mains that want to be in LF1M, provided those other mains are "ready" for 25-man raid content. (This may include guild apps we're interested in.) I'd like to see it go this way regardless of attunement needs.  I'm guessing Shihli would agree with me on this anyway.

3. As far as getting dps attuned for Hamfist . . we already did.  There is a slew of "LF1M dps" attuned already that can and do step in when needed.  (Watches, Dufe, Roguered, etc.)

I would also mention this, in a sense -

I have offered Luchs and Shihli to Atar to help on Saturdays quite often.  Most Saturdays, in fact, over the past 3 months or so.  More often than not, he has had a need for an enhancement shaman more than a resto/elemental one, and he has something to the tune of FIVE hunters clamoring for their spots.

In a sense, I have put in a good chunk of time into Atar's raid.  Now, I'm NOT saying that I, in any way, DESERVE anything.  What I *am* saying is that this isn't me going "lol can i come get attuned plx!?!?" on a whim.  I have tried to be a resource for both Hamfist and LF1M.  If you volunteer your alt for BT/MH attunement, right now, can you say the same?  Can you be a resource for two different raids, on two different schedules?

Because of the apparent problem people have with me trying to get an alt attuned in the spirit of helping everyone out.  Now everyone's alt deserves a ride, simply because a few have gotten attuned already and one has been preparing for it for months now.

I'll leave the option hanging, and leave it up to Garreth and Atar as to what they want to do with me.  This is giving me a headache, as I'm sure it's given Garreth one for years.