A note about Shihli, Luchs, main toons, and raiding
Shihli — Thu, 03/06/2008 - 11:12
So last night, during some post-raid discussion, there were a few points that came to light that I want to address.
First off, hi - my name is Shihli. I am a * hunter *. Shihli is my main, and will continue to be my main for the forseeable (and unforseeable) future. I started playing this game in the fall of '04 (I think, might've been '05) during Thanksgiving break.
I have been trying to finish up MH/BT attunement on my ALT, Luchs, over the past month or so. He has the Vashj vial and, fortune permitting, will have an Al'ar kill tonite. Once Atar's raid has Kael down (or if we do more LF1Ham runs), I will be able to get his Kael vial.
Now, let me make this perfectly clear:
I am not now, nor will I ever, make my Shaman my MAIN toon. My MAIN toon is Shihli. The *ONLY* reason that I am pushing to attune my ALT, Luchs, is because we have had frequent healer shortages over the past few months, and I wish to have him available to help the raid in the event that should occur again.
It is NO DIFFERENT than the reason we attuned Pudolski (to help tank when we are down tanks, and to help tank tough trash packs like most of MH and Shahraz trash) or Disrupta (to help tank if one of our ferals had to miss a night). Hell, the only reason I MISSED our prior attunement runs back in December was because I was down in California, as well as figuring out if I was quitting the game or not.
I HAVE NO PLANS to switch toons. NONE. ZERO. NADA. I *ONLY* want to attune Luchs out of the interests of the raid and guild as a whole. Once Luchs gets his Al'ar and Kael'thas kills out of the way (as well as one Rage Winterchill kill), he will NOT be in a 25man raid AT ALL unless EXPLICITLY REQUESTED by Garreth, or by Atar on weekends when I am available to fill in spots for his raid.
IF you have issues with me trying to get my alt attuned, talk to me personally - although I must admit I wouldn't understand your attitude. People clamor and love the possibility that Epatrick can come in and raid on his alt, Pudolski, on any given night. I should hope that me making another healer available does not cause any problems for anyone in either raid, as ALL it can do is HELP.
Thanks for your time.
Letter from the editor: We shut this thread down. I think we all got out of our system what need to be gotten. Let's kill bosses and fuck up Kael this weekend. Lublub --> Garreth
Elaborate? I is
Enixa — Thu, 03/06/2008 - 12:24Elaborate? I is confuzzled... : /
I think I can honestly say
garreth — Thu, 03/06/2008 - 12:23I think I can honestly say that I am no longer a skeptic about the lifting of attunement in 2.4.
I understand the point of
Enixa — Thu, 03/06/2008 - 12:21I understand the point of attuning him. I really do. Have the resources need in the rare case we need him. If we need ranged we're gonna need Shihli, You know that but your post said Luchs Elemental. I feel the same as star.
Dynasty
13k Unbuffed HP as Fury
501 Def
24% Dodge 14% Parry 24.7% Block
15k Armor. This is all as fury, not in prot spec. (Would get more def, more armor, and more stam)
What's to say I can't have him get attuned?
I think the elemental
garreth — Thu, 03/06/2008 - 12:30I think the elemental reference was just as a "hey, if you need it, luchs can bring it" sort of thing. In other words, the reason the shammy is so good is that it can fill in any role needed really.
One of the reasons I very cautiously encouraged Pudo and Rupta was because I was afraid of the floodgates being opened in this area.
I'm afraid we've now hit the "WELL IF HE GETS TO I SHOULD ALSO!!!!" situation. If you've brought up your alts in this thread, I would hope that you're only bringing them up because you ACTUALLY want them to help the raid, rather than just being argumentative in this thread
Ok, I'll bite. If you're going to bring up your alts as arguments against this idea, then let's get their names down.
So far I have:
Dynastylol
Starhack
Anyone else want to submit their alts that fulfill a raid role different from their main?
Turth, I don't appreciate
Shihli — Thu, 03/06/2008 - 12:12Turth, I don't appreciate your condescending tone. This is a discussion, not a gripefest - please keep it that way :)
I am planning on attuning Luchs and hoping we'll never need him in a 25man raid. I think it's better to have a resource and not use it, than need it and not have it.
I may not have 25man healing experience, but I have 10man and 40man healing experience - I didn't heal all of pre-BC but in the sense of the environments that I have healed in, I have arguably the same background as you, Turth.
I won't say that as soon as Luchs is attuned, that he "deserves" to come heal. I want to get more gear and more experience. I also, however, want to have the resource AVAILABLE to the raid in case shit does happen.
Starhack - ~1650 +heal, ~172
starstalker — Thu, 03/06/2008 - 12:14Starhack - ~1650 +heal, ~172 mp5 unbuffed. I heal kara almost every week. I heal in 5man heroics. I've healed SSC on one night without coming in last.
I've helped atar out before, always willing to again. Starstalker brings less of a buff to raid than a survival hunter. Whats to stop getting starhack attuned, "just in case"?
edit: not a complaint, troll, or accusing tone, just an honest "what if" question, more in response to Turth's first post.
/flings poop at Garreth
The skill it takes to heal
Enixa — Thu, 03/06/2008 - 12:08The skill it takes to heal BT or Hyjal is not ascertained (sp?) overnight. Your right I have never seen you healing in ATar's LF1M raids at all. What deems you ready to step into BT out of no where without prior experience. That's like telling PK to tank fury... Oh and BTW, better hold aggro.
As for being 100% commited
Shihli — Thu, 03/06/2008 - 12:08As for being 100% commited to Thursday and Saturday nights, I never have been nor can I be.
I don't want to raid every night. I have been "commited" to Atar's raid on Saturday nights on a call-me-if-you-need-me basis. Wednesdays is Hamfist, Thursdays have been Lava Crab for over a year now.
If me getting attuned means that I absolutely have to raid every night without fail and rest until I'm attuned, then count me OUT. Fuck it. That'll burn me right the hell out and nullify my ability to enjoy this game.
To address your points,
Shihli — Thu, 03/06/2008 - 12:05To address your points, Garreth:
My unbuffed healing stats on Luchs are somewhere in the neighborhood of 1600 +heal, 230 mp5, 12k mana. I still have a lot of gear from ZA and Karazhan that would be a good upgrade for him.
I have yet to heal a 25man raid on him, as Atar's raid typically ends up good on healers before I am needed to be called in. Likewise, as you said, I have good enhancement gear and I am most familiar with that spec's playstyle. Also, keep in mind that I healed in 40-man raids pre-BC on Drewpy on a weekly basis (once MC got pushed off the main raiding table).
On the healing front, I do enjoy it as it's a good change of pace from playing dps all the time. My main motivation for making a shaman in the first place was to be a raid need-filler ... need melee dps? I'll go enhancement. Need ranged dps? I'll be elemental. Need a healer? I go resto. Same motivation as with my druid pre-BC.
As for switching Luchs to resto full-time, I already heal Karazhan regularly on him, and once I've done it a bit more I plan on perhaps dragging him into ZA as often as I can to heal. If/when he's fully attuned I plan on leaving him as resto damn near 100% of the time, only respeccing to farm as needed for my bank funds.
People may not be sold on the idea that I can heal, and I understand that. That's why I perpetually try to improve my healing skill in any circumstance I realistically can. I have no illusions about the fact that I'm a better dps'er than I am healer. The same can be said of most people that play multiple classes; I imagine Garreth's a better paladin than mage.
For the Record. Some of you
Enixa — Thu, 03/06/2008 - 12:03For the Record. Some of you might doubt it but Turth raided as a SHAMAN pre BC as a HEALER for 2 years. I know wtf I'm doing, just didn't have same mods back then. As for Gear I'm almost up to par as is with TK and SSC. What's to say Turth doesn't go resto? As for someone quitting. Yes that puts us out to dry. But that means Luchs becomes a steady healer then we have people QQ about you switching. The realization is that this may potentially start an underground whisper QQ fest. Whether you want to believe it or not. Garreth look at my comment about you on Dragonspears app :D
Right now, healer-wise we
Shihli — Thu, 03/06/2008 - 11:57Right now, healer-wise we hang on an edge. Our typical Hamfist healers are:
Garreth
Alydis
Vulk
Katibug
Vossa
Clos
Caliroll
Cisper
With occasional appearances by Aidinselene and Coretwo, as schedule permits.
That's 8 healers that we can "expect". Of those 8, Cisper has school a number of nights a week, which leaves us with 7 healers for a given night. What this implies to me is that we don't have enough healers attuned and able to be on in a snap in the event that we're short healers (which has happened more often than being short dps).
I see your point, and it is valid. Keeping in mind, Disrupta has not had to come on his druid for months, and Pudolski swapping in does make a number of trash pulls easier. I will concede that point. However, I am having a hard time seeing how having an additional healer attuned is anywhere close to a bad thing.
Also keeping in mind, all of my attunement efforts (with the exception of last night) have happened OUTSIDE of normal Hamfist raid times. With the exception of 1hr 45min last night, it has NOT interfered with my ability to raid on Shihli.
So while I recognize the point you are making (why not attune more dps too?), I also fail to see how it is a bad thing to want to have more healers attuned. If we can ever get more of Atar's healers fully attuned for MH/BT, I'm all for it and would LOVE to have them available too.
As for "free attunement in two months", what happens if Vulk has problems and has to quit raiding? Or Vossa? Or Kati? As we've seen with many of our healers that have since had to stop raiding, any number of things can pop up that will force one to stop raiding. Having extra people attuned is never a bad thing, imo.
All good and valid points.
garreth — Thu, 03/06/2008 - 12:04All good and valid points. I've always been pro-more-healers. As long as it doesn't affect raid effectiveness in any way, I'm OK.
We're looking at roughly a one month to two month window where this is even remotely an issue (until 2.4 comes out). Will LF1M have Kael down in that time? I know Luchs can raid with them 2/3 of their nights (on the nights it really matters: Thursday and Saturday, Kael attempt nights). Does this gimp them in anyway in that a person that is learning the fight with them will inevitably not be there for that fight in the future? Is Luchs 100% commiting to LF1M for Thursday and Saturday nights for the foreseeable future?
As long as it in no way
garreth — Thu, 03/06/2008 - 11:56As long as it in no way causes any difficulty in either LF1M or Hamfist, then I'm fine with it. You are an officer in guild, but I'm going to grill you like I'd grill anyone else in this sitution. No favoritism here.
You mention Luchs as a healing option, though he's been mostly Enhancement or Elemental.
I do recognize that Luchs as Enhancement brings a massive buff to the LF1M melee who have been sorely needing an enhancement shammy, so staying enhancement on the runs where Atar needs you is legit (the two dps warriors thank you!). Hell, Luchs is significantly more geared than most Enhancement mains.
However, if/when the attunement happens, having an enhancement shammy respec to resto at the last minute for BT has the potential to be disastrous (*cough*Turth*cough. J/k, ILU). I guess what I'm saying is that I think that people who are familiar with this situation aren't quite yet sold on the idea that Luchs can heal.
How would you get the point across that he can? There is not doubt in peoples' minds that Epat can tank the fuck out of anything on Pudo - and, more importantly, LOVES to tank the fuck out of anything on Pudo.
But does Luchs LOVE to heal, or does he just go healy spec when absolutely necessary?
Also, since we're talking about "opposite raid-duty alts", we've been short dps on a few nights in BT/Hyjal almost as often as we've been short healers. So,
What's to stop Hamfist healers' mage/shadow priest/rogue alts from pushing for their own attunements?
For the sake of fairness and openness, I have to ask the tough questions! Hit us back and let us know!
P.S. I do find it hilarious that the two most geared Enchancement shamen I know are a core BT raider main, and a core BT raider alt, LOL.
I feel the same about
Enixa — Thu, 03/06/2008 - 11:49I feel the same about Pudolski, Rupta as well as Luchs. Alt's being attuned is unfair. I'm not saying it can't happen, but what's to say Sqwee or Friks can't get attuned. We've been short dps some nights right? Why not get a dps alt of a healer attuned? All the AoE love pudo for tanking. Comon that's a given. What's to say we won't have Kybosh or PK on a given night. As well as no Pudo. That leaves us to 3 ferals? (Mnor Nuit Rupta right?) Why can't I get Dynasty attuned? It's just a roguh call when it comes to alts. Turth heals, why not have me respec? Granted that won't be the case due to my effectiveness with G5. I'm not by any means saying I want my alt attuned or that your going to be switching. I'm saying why not wait till when Luchs gets free attunement in like... what 2 months?