You can't compare Luchs to Pudolski. Pudolski is needed for MH trash, it makes it smoother and easier - it was requested by the whole raid (especially the AoE).

Actually, I can compare Luchs to any other raiding alt.  Pudolski absolutely is NOT "required for MH trash", because we've done every boss in MH without a Paladin tank.  It does make it smoother and easier, I will grant that - but to say it is a necessity?  No.

Luchs is a safety net a resource that can be tapped if needed. As far as alts goes - I hate them, I hate the fact you've had to DPS while getting your vials, cause it seems to contradict everything you're trying to do with Luchs getting attuned. Most of all I hate the fact that this issue gets boiled up every single chance it can.

I have gone as precisely the spec Atar asked for each and every night I have raided with LF1M on Luchs, which is *exactly* the reason I made my shaman in the first place.  There is ZERO contradiction between that and why I am trying to get him attuned - I made my shaman as a raid need-filler, and that will not change if/when he gets MH/BT attuned.  Granted, he won't ever be asked to come Elemental or Enhancement, if he's ever even asked to come.  Had Atar asked for me to come on any given night as Resto, I would gladly do so. 

And Grasen you can't say "Downing Kael > Bear Mounts" after you chewed me out in guild chat because you wanted your Orgrimmar raid over heart farming.

I'll say it once, DO NOT use this discussion to push personal agendas and issues.  This is NOT a "chew out other guildies" discussion, this is a discussion about the pros and cons of getting an alt healer attuned.

my eyes were bleeding after the first page but here is my two cents

 are healers needed for raid? yes

do both raids get low on healers at times? yes

does shi offer anything exp wise and utility wise? yes

is shi a loot whore? no

last night in lf1m she actively sought me out and asked me if i wanted to switch with him as i was a "main".  I am sorry i have never seen anybody willing to step out like this, or respect a main raider like this.  This right here solidifies and lagitimizes the fact that shi generally wants to BENEFIT whatever raid he is in.  What it comes down to is that in his free time he does everything he can to make his character as helpful as he can (not saying that everybody doesn't).  I for one would rather take a more experienced raider, healer, utility class instead of another hunter (me).  

I don't advocate people being loot whores, and i hate getting outrolled on items from alts, however when the people are there, and they are helping the raid, and are more consistant then mains should they be punished?  Shi doesn't fit into any of these roles, and frankly i'm a bit suprised that this is such an issue.  you know this guy, you have lived, and wiped with this guy for years.  If there is anybody who should not have had this kind of grief it is him.

If people have this much of an issue we need to just fluff the guild with way too many types of every class to pull from for raids so as to never have to use alts.  (this isn't practical and will kill any raid progression).  He simply wants to do his part to help in anyway possible, i can dig that and understand that.  If i was a main i would not have any doubt that if i was around and it came between him and i even though he may be better geared that i would get the invite, and if i did i'm sure he would still say no and go on his main or not raid.

i had a lot more points however i'm multitasking at work and forgot them.  This isn't a shi is better then everybody post this is just a shame on us for having this in the first place.  We all know the deal w/ mains and alts, mains > alts period.  He is trying to benefit the raid and is always there to help if needed.  Sad thing is he is getting visibility because he IS needed.  Untill we can fill those spots it shouldn't be an issue. 

frollo
"I'm gettn hitched Bitch!"

I don't know about anyone else in LF1M but i always a assumed you brought your shaman in to help us fill a full 25 man.  Even in Gruul/Mag days when we struggled to get 25 people.

And I would lay down my life to birth a new generation of a righteous culture. To a people I could proudly love and cherish.

I agree completely, Karli, and I'd rather raid on my hunter as well.  When it comes to recruitment from within, we have a severe lack of LF1M raiders that are attuned for BT/MH ... I believe the number is zero, in fact.  Wait, Amenn, kind of - he hasn't raided in a long while, though.

And while I did say that no one is as good on their alt as they are on their main, do you doubt Epat's skill on Pudolski?  Pudo's an alt.  Likewise, to my knowledge Pudo never tanked SSC/TK content up until we started attuning alts, so he didn't have SSC/TK tanking experience.  I'm just saying, just because I said I'm not as good at playing my shaman as I am on my hunter doesn't imply that I'm *not good* on my shaman.

If you want meters, I've done Karazhan runs where I've been competitive with Clos and Vulk on the healing meters, at least according to Violation.

As for recruiting from outside, we've never really been that big on going onto the realm forums and making recruitment posts, nor do we shout in general chat.  Garreth may change this policy but we simply haven't done that.

And again, although I know you know this - this attunement push on my part is only for the following case:

Hamfist is looking to raid MH/BT some night.  Only 6 healers online.  No one from LF1M that heals is online and attuned to help (or all of those that are attuned are in raid already).  However, we have a few dps'ers that could step in to fill my shoes were I to swap onto my healy toon.

Which reminds me, someone had asked earlier what would happen if a healer that was attuned logged in.  I would step out for them at the nearest convenient time (e.g. if we were fighting a boss, I'd do it after the boss), and raid leadership permitting I would swap back onto my hunter.  Likewise, the what-if case also applied to Cisper - and let me make this clear, she's a phenominal healer and we have leaned on her being a healer for a much longer time than I've been considering attunements.  I wouldn't ever dream of taking a healing spot over her, much less did I imply I would ever do so.

Well I've sat out long enough.  lol  I like to see just how far people will go on these subjects. I like to see who is selfish and who isn't.  Remember, it's just a damn game.  If we can't have fun, and talk about these situations like civil people it's not worth the time we put into it.  Just my opinion.  Anyway....

First off I'd like to say that I have no problems with Shihli getting Luchs attuned.  He's put the time in with LF1M and if he's there for a kill awesome, and if he's not he'll get it soon enough.  Shi has NEVER tried to force his way in LF1M.  He has always been invited by me, and by me asking him.  It's like Garreth telling me, "I'm ready to go if needed."  Same with Shi.  BUT, I want everyone to know that I invite mains first. (Mains that have the gear to hold it out in T5 content.  I can't invite a fresh 70 with greens, and blues.  You know this.)  Luchs has always been a last resort if I don't have enough to fill the raid.  He's only there to help.  He has way more FR points than a lot of LF1M raiders.  He bids, but he passes.  I appreciate that he thinks of loot as a Main>alt mind set.

Hopefully we'll get down Al'ar, VR, and Solarian tonight.  We may have one standing on Saturday, but I want to take Kael shots on Saturday regardless.  I would be up for Kael on Sunday night too.  I would like to attune as many mains as possible, and if Luchs gets in great, but if not oh well.  My main focus is to get to Hyjal.  If that means we get there with LF1Ham lets do it.  The only people I really care about getting vials are the main LF1M people.  If alts get them on the way it's terrific.

People that have problems with Luchs being attuned just think about the times LF1M has been down DPS and Luchs came in to help.  I'm sure we'll need that help in Hyjal/BT.  Let's stop bitching and down some bosses.  That's my thinking.  We'll all be in T6 content soon enough, and this whole conversation will be worthless.  Let's be pro's.  We're Downfall.  We work as a team and work shit out.

I would absolutely focus on Kael this Sunday once it gets planned.  It just means that the mount run that was planned needs to get rescheduled is all.

Garreth, is Kael for this Sunday a for-sure thing?

Also, Garreth, please remember that there was plans for a ZA Mount run this Sunday.  If possible, can we plan the Kael kill (if it comes through) for a later time on Sunday, say after 8pm server?  That way, the mount run in ZA has a chance to finish up before Kael.

If Kael needs to happen earlier sunday, well, I suppose we can defer the mount run until another time, or perhaps just do it on Thursdays.  But I'd love to see some bear mounts in this guild :D

Whatever happens id rather have one of LF1M's rogue to be there and soak up the experience and maybe some fat loots.

I wouldn't mind getting my warrior geared, then later attuned (likely 2.4 attuned). I have 10 man BC experience tanking and  tanked many MCs pre BC. Of course getting him geared is a long shot it would always be good if PK happened to be unable to raid one night.

Ewiges - Absorbing the stupidity of the world for over 20 years.

My biggest pet peeve is people selective reading what they want to see and putting words into my mouth I never said. Never signed up for a list, dont put me on one.

G, you opened up the topic of me and Turth's alts with the 3rd response in the thread. "What's to stop Hamfist healers' mage/shadow priest/rogue alts from pushing for their own attunements?"

I brought it up ibecause you posted the direct quesiton about other people's alts, and it was not answered. I even specifically pointed out it was a question, and I was not interested in it, and to not mis-construe it as such. Again, selective reading.

"In other words, if you bring it up, be willing to bet your house on it.
By saying "Well, what about Starhack?" you're effectively saying "I
am interested in attunement on Starhack because I am directly
referencing this alt character in a discussion about alts." If you are
not interested in attunement for Starhack, why bring it up other than
to add chatter to an overly involved medium?"

The thread was opened with the invitation for discussion. Why you
wouldn't want to explore how far down the rabbit hole it goes, I don't
know.

/flings poop at Garreth

Allright, I'm so down for Kael on Sunday.   It's an awesome fight and one I miss.  It's hilarious that we look at Kael now as "the good ol' days" since Illidari Council has been pushing our shit in...

I haven't missed a Vashj kill in Saturday LF1M for a month and it was always a blast.  Let's get a lot of LF1M people in raid, as well as the Hamfist that still need gear off him.  And, yes, if you KNOW (not think, but KNOW) your alt is geared enoug.... fuck, let's get them in.  Note, this is NOT an alt-fun-run.  If the alts are failing their jobs, we'll ask their mains to get on, it's that simple.

T5 chest? Yes plx.  I'll make the event.