Rogues are Easy
saedo — Wed, 04/02/2008 - 12:59
Heh so I was on vent that night but I ain't as quick witted to respond. lol But this topic's been on the back of my mind so I'll just blurt stuff out here.
Rogues are easy. Easiest dps class imo, which is part of the reason why rogues can top damage most of the time. Most only really have to pay attention to 3-5 timers, 3-5 buttons to mash. And I've raided in every raid spec there is cept for maces. Don't have to care about mana, cast times, swing timers, rage starvation, shot clipping, pets, buffing, other ppl's health bars, etc. In the most dire of situations where ppl are out of "gas", rogues can still dps (barring the get the fuck out of there situations). We are an unlimited source of dps.
But getting the most dps out of a rogue is another matter. Why are the top dps rogues in top guilds? Why can bad healers stick with top guilds? Because of natural selection. There's a fuck ton of rogues out there. If you can't strive to the top, then look, there's another one right around the corner. Bad healer? Replace him? Well typical follow up question, where do you find another? Guilds will tend to work most strats around what healers (and tanks) are capable of, not what dps does.
Anyone can probably play a rogue and get 45-60% of it's potential out by button spamming whatever. This is just going by some personal gut feelings so don't pay too much heed to this part. lol A person with some knowledge of the rogue class, like SnD is good, can probably squeeze out 60-75% of the potential. A person with more knowledge of some cycles and sticks to em can probably squeeze out 75-90% of the potential. The last 10% is a bit touchy though. This is where the luck/lag/human judgement/reaction times factors in. In reality, stuff happens, good or bad. A good string of procs or a bad streak of lack of procs do warrent a cycle adjustment just when that happens. However, this does require more of the on-the-fly quick judgement to adapt. This is a rather fine line to walk cause improper reactions can hurt dps. Don't ever expect 100%, you'd need the moons to align and every proc and buff/debuff going full steam for you.
Another matter was with PvE rogues being top in PvP as well. I actually think it's the other way around. If you can be top in PvP, you can do PvE providing you have the appropriate knowledge for it. Arena PvP, which I haven't really done much, but from what I gather is not straight dps for a rogue. You do watch 2-10 health bars, watch timers, manage some CC, target switch when needed, etc. All that is pretty dumbed down in pve since you can basically cut it all down to watch timers, hit buttons.
Well that's all I remember for this rant. lol
Geez shihli, I thought
starstalker — Sat, 04/12/2008 - 12:19Geez shihli, I thought I'd be the only other one to get that.
http://fourlights.ytmnd.com/
/flings poop at Garreth
FOUR LIGHTS
Shihli — Sat, 04/12/2008 - 11:43FOUR LIGHTS
Dang. I was really looking
Dufe — Sat, 04/12/2008 - 11:28Dang. I was really looking forward to some sort of well thought-out, logical response to all of the counterpoints I gave him. All of my disputes were valid and relevant . . . it really should've been an interesting discussion, but in the end all we got was . . .
Now that Isilra's gone, it's
Shihli — Sat, 04/12/2008 - 11:06Now that Isilra's gone, it's time to clean up all the shit he left behind and return this to a proper discussion about rogues.
Thanks Dufe now I gotta go
Dragon — Thu, 04/10/2008 - 09:36Thanks Dufe now I gotta go google your big words again :P
~Legendary Nobody
"Isilra, dude, you're
Barqz — Thu, 04/10/2008 - 07:46"Isilra, dude, you're proving to all of us the very reasons why we don't want you in guild.
Ignorant about class mechanics? Check
Deflecting arguments? Check
Terrible spelling? Check
Damn-near intelligible written communication skills? Check
Seriously ... why are you still here?"
You know, i hardly ever agree with shilhli on anything at all, but this statement I totally 100% endorse.
Live Every Moment, Seize Everyday
I only need to say three
Dufe — Wed, 04/09/2008 - 19:55I only need to say three things in response:
1: You may want to brush up on your informal logic fallacies. Note that there would be a difference between "ad hominem attacks" (as you've used it) and "argumentum ad hominem." If you don't know what I mean by this, well . . . have fun learning it I suppose.
2: You only gave any real response to point #1 of my last post.
3: I'm not sure what made you think that I'm "angry," but for the record, there is no anger here on my end.
Ok FIRST THINGS FIRST. God
Dragon — Wed, 04/09/2008 - 10:52Ok FIRST THINGS FIRST.
God damn I was hoping it wouldn't come to this but now I am stepping in.
1st. I started this by purposely setting Garreth off. I do this as I find it entertaining when other people take the bait that I leave open because I know what Garreths reaction will be.
Now to the argument at hand from a Paladin that knows PvP rather well.
A given raid for Downfall (which is about average) has the following composition.
3 Tanks
8 Healers
14 DPS.
For tanks we have 3 classes that we can choose from as follows: Warrior, Druid, Paladin
When it comes to healers, we have 4 classes to choose from: Priest, Paladin, Druid, Shaman
When it comes to DPS, we have all 9 classes to fill a raid with.
Due to the nature of you rolling your pure dps class you will be expected to put out top numbers every time all the time and on command. That is your sole job is to maximize your damage output on a given boss, period plain and simple no questions asked. Thats it after you cut away the bullshit and get right down to it.
You are solely concerned with it so that someone else who can do it better doesn't take your spot. In fact, about the only time your not is when your tryin to find your vanish key if it looks like it will be a wipe.
Turn next to the healers. First of all, fewer classes that CAN actually healer. Fewer people that play those (myself included) actually enjoy healing on those classes. Those people aren't responsible for big pretty numbers taking chunks out of a bosses health but rather they are trying to replace the chunks that the boss is taking out of everyone else. Not only do they have to keep themselves up, but they have to keep anywhere from a tank to everyone else in teh raid up.
They are concerned with mana efficiency and not over healing a target. They need to give the exact amount a given person needs at a given time for the lowest mana cost. This is not always Flash of Light on a Paladin like some may wish to believe but it requires using everything. It requires knowing when to use Lay on Hands, hoping to god that you have a pot cooldown soon. I am busy looking at 24 other people and myself. Sounds a lot harder than maximizing damage on 1 target to me.
Now for PvP and how it effects PvE
First and Foremost it doesn't. A rogues job in PvE is maximized damage output, in PvP your job differs to locking down a target. These really are 2 S E P E R A T E things. This is the reason that the stats Garreth posted show rogues with more representation in lower brackets of arena. It allows your control to play a bigger role.
In PvP for the paladin (As holy) it changes. In PvP, if your opposition is playing correctly a healer is normally killed, disabled or made useless first. This requires being able to dodge mana burns, LoS spells and bait counterspells/kicks/pummels etc. Paladins in all aspects are creatures of utility. The more people there are, the more our utility is maximized. Also we have no reliable instant casts (Nature's Swiftness, Prayer of Mending, Lifebloom, Rejuv, Renew), so here is a high probabilty that we will get caught standing in the middle of no where having to heal ourselves. This obviously effects the lower brackets of arena where there are fewer targets. Even with all this, we are expected to keep up multiple targets other than ourselves and still try to stun and judge opponents.
I've played a rogue. I had to stop cause I found it to boring. The paladin takes moer thought to play overall. And for the most part more skill. In PvP on a rogue, all your have to do is use wound poison/crip poison in arenas, as well as gouge, blind, kidney shot and cheap shot to be considered above average at your class.
A paladin has the following jobs.
Judging Justice
Stun (on a long ass cooldown so has to be well timed)
Blessing of Freedom (after all you did want to hit that frostmage sometimes right)
Blessing of Protection
Blessing of Sacrifice
Still Determine the best heal for a given situation
Rebuff whichever blessing fell off the target after one of teh above blessings wore off.
PoleDance like a pro
And bait interupts
And that is just the holy paladin, that makes it a LOT harder to find an exceptional paladin healer in a PvP setting.
WHY? Because there is more crap you have to do.
Now please, you have reached the point of just arguing for arguing sakes. Come at us with fresh hard facts, roll a paladin to 70 gear up and expierence PvP and PvE on said paladin. Assuming you can't do either of those, pls STFU and GTFO off our forums with your blind ignorance to other classes.
~Legendary Nobody
Meh, I think all this long
saedo — Wed, 04/09/2008 - 10:35Meh, I think all this long talk just goes back to what I said in the my first rant.
There are a metric fuckton of rogues out there and if you obviously suck, you won't last. Damage meters, WWS, whatever are blatently showing what level of DPS you are, so if you're not fighting for the top, another rogue is right around the corner.
As for healers, there are those nuances that meters just can't easily show. But once you do determine they suck, they are hard to replace. There aren't a ton of them out there so you work around them. Yea, make em spam the MT or whatever easy job they can handle.
Who cares about arena. To be good at it, yes you need the rogue to be good and you need your partner(s) to be good as well. It is a different ballpark, but chances are if you can learn to be good at one you can learn to be good at the other. Wouldn't make a guarentee though. It's basically a capacity to learn and perform. But if you must stick with the arena argument, might as well use dueling to determine skill.
Seeing poor argument
Magic — Wed, 04/09/2008 - 10:27Seeing poor argument structure helps me refine my own
Isilra, dude, you're proving
Shihli — Wed, 04/09/2008 - 10:08Isilra, dude, you're proving to all of us the very reasons why we don't want you in guild.
Ignorant about class mechanics? Check
Deflecting arguments? Check
Terrible spelling? Check
Damn-near intelligible written communication skills? Check
Seriously ... why are you still here?
Ewiges, i see your
Barqz — Tue, 04/08/2008 - 11:48Ewiges, i see your "rotation" going through in my head, and its working swimmingly
Live Every Moment, Seize Everyday
#1: The English in your
Dufe — Tue, 04/08/2008 - 11:30#1: The English in your first couple paragraphs was so bad I can't even be 100% unequivocally sure what you were saying.
#2: I'm not sure why you have this fetish for thinking you can determine a player's PvE skill based on their PvP (Arena) skill, or vice verse, but there are just too many incongruent factors between the two to be able to justify any such comaprison. The lack of formulated, predictable threat in PvP is just one of many. I've seen a few players with very high arena ratings that can't cut it in PvE because they simply can't understand threat. Again, this is just one of many differences.
#3: I find that an equally likely explanation for your argument that you can find "worse" paladins in high end raiding guilds than rogues (I still don't think that this argument has been at all substantiated) is that it is actually harder to get to the "optimum performance" on a Paladin, versus the relative ease of reaching it on a Rogue, thus decreasing the relative abundance of such optimal Paladins. Now, this may not be 100% accurate, but certainly seems every bit as justifiable of an approach as yours.
#4 Without going into more detail on every post made here, the point that I hope has been brought out is that there are far more factors involved here than most people have recognized. You cannot boil the argument down to cds, gcds, rotations, target switching, or # of abilities used alone. Nor is there a feasible way to combine them into any justifiable unified model. For that reason, I kind of find the entire argument a bit silly.
#5 You opened the door to argumentum ad hominem. You shouldn't be surprised that it got thrown back at you.
Nice Saedo, it looks like
Ewiges — Mon, 04/07/2008 - 15:43Nice Saedo, it looks like we're on the same page here except for the vanish. Hate to take this thread off topic, even though I think its been PWN'd more than Bush, but lets talk about vanish. I'm a whore and I've got really close to PK (talking about threat based). I can almost always start the battle right when PK does, I open with Garrote followed by an immediate SnD Blade Fury Adrenaline Rush. Backstabx5 SnD, backstabx4 (right when AR and BF run out) I will be at 80-100% PK threat, vanish garrote rupture. I figure in the 2 seconds it takes to vanish then attack again I'm only losing less than 2k white damage, roughly the same as garrote. This way I get my cooldowns started right as the fight begins. Other fights where I have to lay low for whatever reason I conserve vanish for a AoE resist. Though its extremely hard to do, when I do pull it off it seems so awesome. Lastly on fights like Council its to avoid death on a whipe.
Well like I said, I do wait
saedo — Mon, 04/07/2008 - 16:08Well like I said, I do wait a bit before blowing CDs. I garrote, SnD, get to 4 points, then look. Are 5 sunders up? If yes, I look at my SnD timer and energy bar, if both are low, I SnD. Then I see if my BT trinket procs, 80% chance of it happening, if yes, I blow everything, BF, AR, Drums of Battle, Haste Pots (if i got em to burn). If not, I just wait til my 5 point rupture before blowing everything.
At this time, it's usually already like 15-30 sec into the fight and Pk normally has well enough threat. And if he is wearing his TPS gear, I usually never manage to catch up. I just think saving Vanish for as long as possible only builds up a larger threat buffer for when I do have to use it.
I wish they would show
starstalker — Mon, 04/07/2008 - 13:47I wish they would show the percents without being normalized to the popularity of the class.
/flings poop at Garreth
Well, we've had fun with
garreth — Mon, 04/07/2008 - 13:42Well, we've had fun with anecdotal examples, but here's the real numbers. 100% is the expected showing of a class, GIVEN THAT CLASS' POPULARITY. In other words, if there were 10,000,000,000,00 warlocks in ranked arena teams for a given server, but only TWO TOTAL in 2200+ rated arena teams, this would indicate a horribly small representation of warlocks, and possibly something inherently dysfunctional in the class itself.
2200+ teams
2v2 3v3 5v5 Druid 276.0% 184.0% 80.5% Hunter 43.0% 50.2% 43.0% Mage 8.7% 96.0% 96.0% Paladin 19.7% 29.5% 147.4% Priest 113.3% 64.8% 185.4% Shaman 37.8% 50.4% 138.6% Rogue 144.2% 175.1% 61.8% Warlock 149.2% 93.2% 111.9% Warrior 130.4% 90.7% 79.3%You can interpret these numbers is a few different ways. But the one I'd like to focus on is the paladin line: horrible representation in 2s, not much better for 3s, but the second highest showing in 5s. Rogues have some of the highest over-representation in 2s and 3s and close to the bottom in 5s.
What do we learn from this? Well, there's a LOT of paladins in 2200+ teams, contrary to prior arguments. We also learn what we already know about rogues: When you need to stun lock and incapacitate in nearly a solo arena, rogues have the ability to do it. Does the low showing of rogues in 5s mean that all the rogues must be shitty on those teams? No. Does the low paladin representation in 2s mean that paladins are "low skill"?
No.
It means that certain encounters are tuned to certain synnergies, which we already knew and was stated well by Kognus earlier in this thread. If anything, we see an ABUNDANCE of paladins in 2200+ teams, thus disproving your prior theory that the lack of paladins in high ranked teams must indicate an innate lack of skill.
http://boards.worldofraids.com/topic-11442-1.html
Didn't proof read or
Ewiges — Mon, 04/07/2008 - 13:33Didn't proof read or organize in advance. Make what you can and I'll follow up later. And if someone wants to power gear my warrior or pally I'll come heal and do average healing. (I'm not pro) I'm a good warrior though.
Ewiges - Absorbing the stupidity of the world for over 20 years.
Wow, I don't know how I
Ewiges — Mon, 04/07/2008 - 13:28Wow, I don't know how I didn't see this thread earlier. Anyways, I just read the entire thread and have a few words to clear up some issues. And also, since no one has mentioned me I also want my name put into here.
1. Theres comments about holy priests in PvP, rogues in PvP. Isilra masks this a little bit, but it seems others are putting a stress on the spec. I have a saying most of you have probably heard before. (In regards to a feral druid, or in this case a ret pally) "You can heal with any talent spec". There was a point on Pallidans that incorporated spec. Do you think I do arenas with my PvE spec? No. Do you think pallidans do arenas with PvE holy spec? No.
2. All rogues do is mash 3 buttons. SS, SnD, SS, rupture. We have parses, read them.
3. Pallidans are easy, Rogues are easy. I've been to a high end raid content on a Pally, Rogue, and Warrior. I prefer rogue because they are the least limited. Can I come into BT on my warrior (regardless of gear) and be as good as PK? No! Seado mentioned experience. The hardest boss I've tanked on my warrior is Ragnarose. The game has changed. Can I heal on the pally I play? Yes. Am I good, I'd say so. Do I feel I can raid in BT (also regardless of gear) No. Yes I have healed on my pally in AQ40. But I do not know all the knit and grits. Down ranking, WTF? Back in TKO we had healing teams. Team 1 take heals, team 2 regen. Rogues, the most coordination we have with eachother is kicks. If Saedo misses a SS does it affect me? Hell no. If Saedo dies does it affect me? Nope. If Garreth and Vulk are healing PK and Vulk dies, Garreth just got fucked in the ass.
4. Now I'm getting lazy here and forgot all the little topics in my head as I read of this, but Saedo. Why do you not burn your vanish?
5. Timing. "All Pallies do is spam heals". I can say this is false. I'm not sure how pallies do it now but isn't timing quite important for when you heal? Why waste a heal. If you know PK is bout to get WTFPWN'd you start casting a heal 3 seconds before that. If PK shouldn't take damage the next 5 seconds don't you take 2 seconds to jerk off? (for regen or whatever reasons). Now rogues don't have to time casts, everything we do is instant. But we have more timers then ALMOST any other class. Energy is on a tic basis, I keep an energy bar so I can spend my energy before the tic to get maximum energy regen. SnD, timer. Vanish, Bladefury, CoS, timers. Feint (lol BC) timer. Now this is when people start saying, Rotation.
<---- Begin Rotation rant --->
WTF!!!?
Why do people always send me tells, "Yo Ewiges, what rotation do you use?" Honestly, if there was a rotation (and someone mentioned earlier what class can slack the most and go unnoticed) If there was a rotation I'd program my G15 keyboard to play the game for me while I jerked off at some porn. There is NO FUCKING ROTATION. Now, of course can have a simple, for starters, type idead. Easiest class to learn comes later. You should start with a garrote. Now theres a few objectives. Keep SnD up at all times. Hmm, 15 till class and I so want to type a book on this. Anyways, SS (or backstab) until SnD wears off and reapply that the second it wears off to not overlap at all. If you get 5 combo points til then hit the boss up with a rupture. If you have a lot of magic damage inc, CoS. Burn Adrenaline rush and Blade furry ASAP inorder to get CDs up sooner. Do not rest, there is never a time to rest. (well, maybe 2 seconds as you wait for energy). Timing is a constant when playing a rogue, think ahead 5-10 seconds. Time your buffs and CDs. But a rotation? (sorry got off track). Rogues have a lot of uncrontrollable factors. Trinkets -> procs. When mongoose procs you want to push your energy into DPS. DOn't ride 0 energy, safe that 1 hit for your procs. Who knows, you might also see the boss target a stupid mage and you may want to kick him. (no mage in particular, but it does happen. Doesn't need to be a mage either) Assuming you're combat, even your energy can proc. Combat potency, your energy may come really fast, or at the normal rate. And to conclude even though I tihnk I'm missing some points, most bosses are random! Ask me a rotation on Council and I'll let your ass die many deaths.
Ok, end pathetic rant, begin closing words.
I have a suggestion to make to people that say either class is easier. I leveled my pallidan because I thought healing was easy. I leveled my warrior because I thought a few particular warriors were stupid. I play my rogue because I hate being limited. Rogues shouldn't die, if I die on my rogue it is normally my fuck up. <Que shihli's remarks, he knows what I'm talking about> Pallidans are too limted, I like freedom. To cast a spell you have to stay still. You get max effiency, people use grid. WTF is fun about starring at boxes? Warrior is fun for me, but it too is limited. I have to go to class...
You know why classes are different? Is one easier, no, they have different jobs therefor why they ARE different classes. Oh, and heres a good idea, find a friend with a class you think is easy, ask to trade characters for a raid one night. Then see if anyone can tell a difference in performance. (This is when experience and ignorance will take a part) If anyone does do this, please make a report.
Hmm let's see. Why don't I
saedo — Mon, 04/07/2008 - 14:12Hmm let's see.
Why don't I vanish? Actually, let's flip this question. When should I vanish? Anytime before I pull aggro right? If things are going right and I'm no where near pulling aggro, should I blow vanish? Unless it's an aggro sensitive fight like Gurtogg, I just don't find it neccessary to waste a GCD and the bit of time lost on white damage just to lower my placement on omen for no pressing reason. Of course, with no working Omen, I do use vanish as a pre-emptive precaution.
My rotations rant:
Rotations exist, but only in the tank and spank fight. This is all just a game of probability and statistics. 20% chance to do this every 1.5 sec, 2% chance on each hit, gain this every 2 sec, etc, etc. Over time, averages come out, statistic modeling exists.
My rotation as it exists currently is a 3.6s/5r. What this means is most of the time I can get away with 4 point SnDs and weave 5 point Ruptures without ever losing SnD time. Depending on procs and shit, I can weave in 3 point SnD sometimes instead of 4. Of course again, I stress this is only for a tank and spank portions. Like Teron, Naj'entus without shields, Anetheron, etc. If there is interruption, then it's more of a priority list. SnD > Rupture, no longer set rotation.
As for cooldown usage, I do try to blow them early but do wait for 5 sunders to go up first. That way I can max the hard hitting times. Another thing I've also been doing since I've gotten the BT trinket is to time CDs after I proc it (either after the 4s or 5r) to get the extra 6.5% crit during CD use. I had to add the timer "Exploit Weakness" manually to ClassTimers to better see this.
Also with another thing about this BT trinket, I tend to queue up energy a bit more. So instead of simply spamming to get to 0 energy, depending on timers and procs, I wait for energy to fill up a bit (not to max) before I start again on my rotation.
(No subject)
tajik — Mon, 04/07/2008 - 13:15Isilra, try to leave with
Shihli — Mon, 04/07/2008 - 13:14Isilra, try to leave with some shred of dignity.
I find that this argument
Dufe — Mon, 04/07/2008 - 13:00I find that this argument may be most easily settled with a quote from "the master," Isilra, as stated in his guild app thread:
"And its not hard to play perfect in pve. So i don't beleive its braggin to say you play perfect in pve using lazy and simple yet effective 1s/5r rotations and timing your trinkets with ar.
Its not a complex process, I don't wnat anyone to think it is. What i mean to sya that optimal dps on a rogue is extremely easy, I don't think i'm awesome for being able to do it, but by that same reasoning, i don't feel like i can be outdone by anything but gear."
*Breaks out Popcorn and a
Dragon — Mon, 04/07/2008 - 12:34*Breaks out Popcorn and a Lawn Chair. Pops open a Dr. Pepper*
mmmmmmm entertainment for class and work. PRICELESS!
~Legendary Nobody
Official Loot Sponge of Downfall
I got five bucks on this
garreth — Mon, 04/07/2008 - 12:37I got five bucks on this thread being full of lolcats and Captain Picard /sigh pictures by 4:30pm.
I got five bucks on this
Magic — Wed, 04/09/2008 - 10:30I got five bucks on this thread being full of lolcats and Captain Picard /sigh pictures by 4:30pm.
you owe everyone $5
Epic DUFE, Pure
Keisjaa — Sat, 04/05/2008 - 23:42Epic DUFE, Pure gold(especially given Garreth's current avatar)
(No subject)
Dufe — Sat, 04/05/2008 - 17:54whoosing sound? I am
Barqz — Sat, 04/05/2008 - 14:33whoosing sound? I am sooooo sorry to disappoint you, but I hear no such sound you speak of..wait, no that was baby crying, yep no whoosh. sarcasm is something picked up in audio, you can't read tone of voice...at least not yet, maybe when technology reaches that point maybe. I do love however, that I can easily press your buttons.
Oh and to further add rogues are easy.. I think I am going to agree with Garreth in saying that the responcibilty isn't as high, but in terms of difficulty its probably the same as other classes. I think most classes are (dare I say, and don't hurt me healers) "easy" in terms of if you played your class for 3+ years, you grow second nature to it. WoW is easy in terms of MMO's I have heard horror stories of EQ and FF11. Of course I am in no way saying i could pick up a healer and just own at it. I have only healed on a shammy back in the day, nor can I kite a mob as well a grasen, but that comes with practice...
A better way to decribe a rogue is "quicker to pick up" Everyone can always learn more to their class, for example I could still learn to not get 1 shotted by a mind blast from leo's caputes, or fix my latency and responce time so my kicks work properly :)
Death Knights = Easiest class ever, why because I have no idea what they do.
Live Every Moment, Seize Everyday
The whooshing sound that
Shihli — Sat, 04/05/2008 - 12:22The whooshing sound that Barqs is currently hearing is the entire point of my post sailing straight over his head