Raid: LF1M
Raid Zone:
Hyjal/BT
Please be sure to have your flasks, food, weapon imbues, reagents, and any scrolls you may need. Do your best to be at the instance by the time invites go out. We're going to need to maximize our time if we're going to progress very well in BT - lets get these moving faster.
Wed, 05/07/2008 - 11:15
Wed, 05/07/2008 - 14:00
| 11 individuals signed up |
|---|
| Chief Tenbears |
| pulga |
| Caronte22 |
| Coryni |
| Dragon |
| Derchlon |
| Pyrael |
| Morica |
| Makafis |
| Pettingzoo |
| Captnopants |
A quick note regarding
Shihli — Fri, 05/09/2008 - 11:56A quick note regarding survivability:
It's absolutely more important than dps, in my opinion.
Fights that are "determined" by raw dps (aka burn it down as fast as possible) in current T6 content:
Kaz'rogal
Azgalor
Shade of Akama
Teron Gorefiend
Reliquary of Souls
Brutallus
Eredar Twins (to a point, see below)
Fights that are "determined" by ability to survive, be it by staying alive long enough to get healed, being able to take significant damage spikes, or being able to take care of yourself:
Rage Winterchill
Anetheron
Archimonde
High Warlord Naj'entus
Supremus
Gurtogg Bloodboil
Mother Shahraz
Illidari Council
Lord Illidan Stormrage
Kalecgos
Eredar Twins (survivability needs to be balanced with dps)
7 fights "determined" by dps, versus 11 fights determined by your ability to stay alive.
Granted, if you're a dps'er and you're alive the whole fight but your damage output is miserable, something needs to change. But as always, you can't do your raid job if you can't survive the 1st AoE slam.
Another thing to consider is
saedo — Fri, 05/09/2008 - 12:15Another thing to consider is what kind of survivability does affic give? When it comes down to it, it's just Life Drain and the less need to Life Tap right?
Rage Winterchill - You get tombed, can't do anything unless you pvp trinket out or wait for others to heal you.
Anetheron - It's only really the carrion swarm or infernos that can hurt you. Random occurance.
Archimonde - You move so much you prob can't get a proper Drain Life going. But the dot and run dps has potential over sit and cast ones on pure damage done (not dps).
High Warlord Naj'entus - Can you Drain Life through the shield?
Supremus - Only damage you could be taking is volcanos and you should be running too much during that phase to Drain Life.
Gurtogg Bloodboil - Yea this works for the Bloodboils and Fel Rages
Mother Shahraz - This works if you're not resisting enough
Illidari Council - Yea if you're hit by AoE
Lord Illidan Stormrage - Um, I guess better in Phase 2. Not a whole lot of regular dmg in other phases.
Kalecgos - Yes this would be a good fight for it on Dragon phases. Demon phase too perhaps but perhaps dps is more prioritized there.
Eredar Twins - Go with it.
So I see it as even less fights that actually require self maintanance for survivability.
Good clarification. I was
Dufe — Fri, 05/09/2008 - 12:07Good clarification. I was more focused on the second to the last sentence, but the last is just as valid.
I had a whole post about
Epatrick — Fri, 05/09/2008 - 01:45I had a whole post about warlock dpsing, but the thread got ahead of me while I was typing, so I deleted it. I like the utility of affliction, I also know that current gear pushes us heavily into "YOU SPAM SHADOWBOLT MOAR LOLOLOLOL" One thing you MUST remember with Sac/S&F is this : never ever EVER ask us for an imp, EVER. it's an effective 15% dmg done lost to us. w/e extra stam the tank gains from that imp is not worth the amount you will slow down our ability to help kill said boss. I know jester really likes Affliction, I LOVE affliction, and playing on pyrael made me miss the intricate dance of dots I got to play with, watching timers, finishing casts, etc. But without ruin ( the thing that makes crits into OMFG IT'S OVER 9000) it's not worth it.
I know jester was mucking about with the idea of leaving off UA and getting Ruin instead, and I'd be all for him trying that to see if we could possibly keep him utility affliction, but Affliction without UA is like a dog without a hydrant. it's the point of the tree. It's the thing that makes us giggle when we go to AV and watch a cleanse bot suddenly explode...it's also the reason I had /say fuck! macro'd for reflecting mobs. Affliction locks aren't built for DPS they're built for learning curves/survivability/utility Weave, if he's lucky, will be the last caster standing during a massive AoE. Look at how much life he drains on any give RoS kill, it's INSANE. He barely needs a hot, whereas the rest of us are critting the ever living hell out of ourselves and going "fuck fuck fuck, I hope that one of the raid healers see I'm kicking my own ass here".
Affliction warlocks are also the most self sufficient and low maintenance of all the dps besides possibly hunters. they're built to be fire and forget dps. They don't need heals like the mages (who have no inate ability to regen health) if they get low on life, they drain and a friendly pally sees the green beam and goes and bops the crazy fucking mage bouncing around like an idiot in the middle of a group of ghouls. They don't really push threat as they can manage it very well, since they have no crit strings to speak of, just steady dots and non monster shadowbolts. They're also not lifetapping as much since a fully buffed dark pact imp has insane mana regen and we just steal it's mana :x Epat requires at least a few hots every minute or so to sustain dps while using pot cooldowns for destruction/mad alch potions. Weave just pacts and keeps casting. Affliction warlocks are THE most efficient casters in raid, making weave into a destro lock would be a large increase in dmg for him personally, but, as saedo posted, is it really worth the loss of shadow priest mp5 and other mage/lock dps? it'd be interesting to see. Illidan fights with tankard, diky, weave and epat would look like this
1.warlock
2.warlock
3.shadowpriest
4. warlock
5. mage
This made me do some
garreth — Fri, 05/09/2008 - 00:09This made me do some searching in Hamfist. We have an affliction lock with a 4-piece T6 set bonus: "Increases the damage dealt by your Shadow Bolt and Incinerate abilities by 6%."
Am I loopy, or does this say "YOU NEED TO BE SHADOW BOLT SPAMMING BY NOW!" to anyone else? I haven't seen weave really over 1100 dps and I'm really wondering if the raid would be better served if we could talk him into going full Destro.
Is an 1900 dps Weave is doing more good than than an 1000 dps Weave with Malediction and Shadow Embrace?
Well let's run the numbers
saedo — Fri, 05/09/2008 - 00:48Well let's run the numbers with Hamfist. Using a Teron kill, only arcane mage was Karli at 1847 dps, Dikymo 1633 dps, Tankard 1436 dps, Weave 966 dps, Antiquite 1175 dps, Keisjaa 1112 dps.
Karli: 3% of her damage was scorch which is unaffected so let's go with 0.97 * 1847 = 1791.59 dps for her that was affected. 3% of that is 53.7 dps for the contribution.
Dikymo: All SB and corruption, so just 1633 * 0.03 = 48.99 dps
Tankard: All SB, so 1436 * 0.03 = 43.08 dps
Weave: He had an immolate in for 1% of the dmg, so 0.99* 966 * 0.03 = 28.69 dps
Antiquite: 1175 * 0.03 = 35.25 dps
Keisjaa: 1112 * 0.03 = 33.36 dps
So on the surface, the malediction gave 53.7 + 48.99 + 43.08 + 28.69 + 35.25 + 33.36 = 242.98 dps
But there's a bit more going on. Shadow priests give back mana from 5% of their damage. So, add that in...
Antiquite: 35.25 dps * 0.05 * 5 = 8.81 MP5
Keisjaa: 33.36 dps * 0.05 * 5 = 8.34 MP5
So that's another 8-9 MP5 per person in their group. Which depending on what it is, more heals or more dps. Whatever it's worth to them.
So the thing to find out is how much dps increase does going to destro gonna give? Is geared for destro enough to be worth trying? Needs high crit for it right? Number wise he has to make up for about 250ish dps + whatever that MP5 is worth to the raid.
On most of the fights we're
Dufe — Fri, 05/09/2008 - 11:48On most of the fights we're on now, 8-9 mp5 has a negligible effect for me. Not sure about other casters. Even if you call it 1 mp5 = 1dps, and consider that 6 of the 8 people getting mana from the spriests are damage casters that receive that large of a benefit (wishful thinking really), then it's another 54 dps, bringing the total to around 300. Based on Coryni going from 850 dps to 1450 dps on the same fight be going destro, I'd say it's pretty easy for the personal gain to outweigh the loss to raid dps.
Survivability is always nice. I could always go deep frost for more survivability, but I don't think I could keep up my current dps as frost. I honestly think that in 25-mans dps >> survivability. Even doing 2600-3000 dps on Hyjal trash, I pretty much don't die unless the pally tank goes down, regardless of how many ghouls are in the pack.
The thought that we have a destro lock leave out an imp if we REALLY need one was based on this: 1500dps destro lock goes afflic, loses 600dps, adds TOPS 300 raid dps for an overall raid dps loss of 300. 1500 dps destro lock leaves his imp out, loses 15% of his damage. 15% * 1500 = 225dps. In other words, if having an imp out is the only remaining reason to be afflic, then it's more efficient raid dps-wise to have a destro just leave theirs out. Plus, they have the option of sacing it and going back to 1500 on any fight where it's not needed. I'm not necessarily pushing for this to happen, just pointing out the fact that it would likely have better results for raid dps.
In short, what I've read and seen suggests that affliction does not scale well with gear, so there is a point in progression and gearing where destro really becomes the leader in effective dps. (including the "utility dps") I think LF1M is at or past that point. If we think we can do this without shadow embrace, (which again, we haven't had for at least the last week or so anyway) then we should have Py go destro. If anyone wants to see what I mean about your dps scaling with your new gear, do this: Look at some recent boss fights, ie from the last week. Then go and find yourself on the same boss fight 3-4 months ago. How much has your dps changed, with all the upgrades you've gotten? It woult appear from the experiment that afflic locks get very little benefit from better gear at this point in game, while destro dps keeps climbing.
I was more referring to
saedo — Fri, 05/09/2008 - 11:59I was more referring to Garreth's question on Weave with my post. Can't just force a respec and take some dps numbers at face value to draw a conclusion. There's gear and other interactions going on.
This brings up something
garreth — Thu, 05/08/2008 - 23:52This brings up something I've been dying to have in wow: A "Contributed Damage Score". Basically, I've always wanted a way to quantify the damage that is added to a raid by bringing someone who contributes a group or raid-wide dps buff. Classes this applies to are Ret Pallys, Enh Shammies, Moonkins, Affliction Locks, Survival Hunters, etc
What is interesting about this score is that it is totally dependant on the current composition of the raid. A survival hunter in a raid with 15 melee will have a MASSIVE Contribution Score. A survival hunter in a raid with 15 mages will have a low, low, low Contribution Score. Not only does the score depend completely on RAID composition, it also depends on raid ARRANGEMENT. In other words, sticking an enh shammy into a group with casters will lower his contribution score significantly.
Is there anything on the EJ forums or elsewhere that addresses this?
The closest thing would be a
saedo — Fri, 05/09/2008 - 00:07The closest thing would be a group setup app someone was trying to do. The only problem is that different buffs interact with different classes differently. It would take a massive collaboration of basically all the spreadsheets put into one to get real theoretical numbers.
I will be the first to say
Coryni — Thu, 05/08/2008 - 23:42I will be the first to say it: being an aff lock at this time (in
Mt.Hyjal/BT) does not out weight the loss in dps. It sucks. I loved being
an aff lock. I'm sure- I hope- the time will come again where aff locks have
their place and be a more meaningful assist to raid. Until then, SB spamming will
just have to tide us over.
If my math is correct.
Coryni — Thu, 05/08/2008 - 23:35If my math is correct. please say so if i'm wrong.
Rank3 CoS increases dmg out by 10% Malediction boots that by another 3% for a total of 13%
On average, from what I have gathered, our 5 Arcane Mages/Shadow Priests/Warlocks do the following:
Morcia 10% of 1200dps= 120 added by CoS
13% of 1200dps= 156 added with CoS w/ mal
added diff given by aff lock 56dps
Watchesup 10% of 1600dps= 160 added by CoS
13% of 1600dps= 208 added with CoS w/ mal
added diff given by aff lock 48dps
Coryni 10% of 1300dps= 130 added by CoS
13% of 1300dps= 169 added with CoS w/ mal
added diff given by aff lock 39dps
Dufe 10% of 1800dps= 180dps added by CoS
13% of 1800dps= 234dps added with CoS w/ mal
added diff given by aff lock 54dps
Pyrael 10% of 800dps= 80dps added by CoS
13% of 800dps= 104dps added with CoS w/ mal
added diff given by aff lock 24dps
giving a sum of 56+48+39+54+24= 221 increased dps out by mal alone
Granted I rounded all the above numbers for easier math but
I error on the generous side. the bases of my numbers where pulled from warlock pve raiding compendium.
I think the math generally
Dufe — Fri, 05/09/2008 - 00:00I think the math generally looks good. The only thing that could possibly be nit-picked is the fact that I throw in frostbolts as a (low) portion of my dps that wouldn't be affected by CoS. Also, I see Pyreal doing some Immolates that wouldn't be affected. Again, this is just a very small issue, the point being that the benefit to raid dps would even be a bit lower than the total you've got. Not by any large amount though.
With my respec and some very
Coryni — Thu, 05/08/2008 - 23:03With my respec and some very minor adjustments to my gear my dps jumped from 800 to 1300 and pushing 1500 on some bosses. I would love to see that 2000 Shinzwei but i'm not there yet. Even if Py respeced before next week an increase in dps doesn't happen over night. Give me some T6 or even T5 and we will talk.
Spec into spamming
Shinzwei — Thu, 05/08/2008 - 22:47Spec into spamming shadowbolts and voila 2k DPS! Maybe those numbers are unrealistic but atleast you can eat a burrito while raiding ;)
It may be perfectly valid
Dufe — Thu, 05/08/2008 - 22:30It may be perfectly valid for survival hunters, but I just don't see the math adding up for Afflic locks. Looking at BT parses, I have a hard time finding very many other raids with afflic locks.
No, they aren't G. It's the
Shihli — Thu, 05/08/2008 - 22:25No, they aren't G.
It's the same reason why Nihilum "magically" had no melee dps for the Eredar Twins, why all of their raiders are Leatherworkers, and why they used [Nightfall] to the point that it got nerfed -
They see big numbers and want more, fuck hybrids that enhance everyone else.
I know a number of raids don't bring Survival hunters because "lol they aren't bm and can't do damage!" However, I provide the raid with an additional 360 AP at all times during a raid boss. This means that the following classes all gain a minimum of 25 dps:
- All warlock pets that might be attacking the target
- All feral druids
- All rogues
- All hunters
- All hunter pets
- All enhancement shamen
- All ret and prot paladins
- All warriors
In a typical Hamfist raid, that means that no fewer than 11 raiders (and 3 of their pets) gain an additional 360 AP on all of their attacks. That is an extremely potent buff. If you give 25 raw dps (likely higher for everyone involved, really) to 14 targets, you're talking a raid-wide 350 dps increase minimum. That's just assuming they're using white attacks. The real boost is probably more to the order of 500 dps raid-wide.
If I specced back to BM, would Ferocious Inspiration (+3% damage done by group) on four players outweigh a 500dps-ish raid-wide buff? Potentially, depending on the makeup of the group and how well it complements the strengths of each group member.
In short, just because one player's dps doesn't seem up to snuff, consider what they are doing for other players. Take a chunk of their dps and give credit for it to the person sacrificing personal dps for group/raid dps gains. Turth may not top the meters, but you can bet that Group 5 would drop down in the standings if he weren't there giving them Windfury and Unleashed Rage.
I'll give some
saedo — Thu, 05/08/2008 - 23:33I'll give some numbers.
Currently, a survival hunter assuming 1000ish Agility gives me 88.7 dps.
A BM hunter will give me 55.83 dps.
Well, WF vs Shadow Embrace
garreth — Thu, 05/08/2008 - 22:43Well, WF vs Shadow Embrace (5% less damage caused by a boss) are in completely different realms. Apples and oranges really.
Considering that Py doesn't even have Shadow Embrace, all he's bringing for pure raid utility at this point is Curse of Exhaustion (not really applicable for Hyjal/BT, but was amazing for Vashj) and Improved Curse of Shadows/Elements (Malediction).
Now, if we can get some math in here that states that Malediction equates to 600 more raid-wide dps, then I'm sold. However, considering that it can only affect Arcane Mages/Shadow Priests/Warlocks OR Fire/Frost Mages, it's likely only boosting the damage output of the following people in LF1M:
OR
So what we have to look at is if Pyrael - as full affliction - can add over 100 dps to FIVE raiders to make up for the lack of his own dps. If he can, well, fuck yeah! If he can't, does having an Imp out offset the lack of dps?
If the answer to both of these is "no", then let's rock some shadow mage hotness and blow some shit up for great justice.
Honestly, IF this is the
Dufe — Thu, 05/08/2008 - 22:23Honestly, IF this is the case, then affliction is "costing" Pyreal somewhere between 500 - 700 dps (compared to a couple of our destros). Imp CoS vs. normal CoS only adds ~40 dps for me, I'm not sure how it affects others, but I seriously doubt it plus other raid dps benefits add up to the huge loss of personal dps. The imp and shadow embrace are another issue, but looking around I don't see very many guilds running BT with an afflic lock. I'm thinking this loss of dps may be the reason.
Do we REALLY need the imp? Question 2, What is the dps loss for a destro lock who just doesn't sac his imp? Is it 600dps? Group stacking -wise: Ok, so you get some more mana from the spriest and ~100dps (being generous here) from the totem? Does that make up for the 600dps difference? It reduces the gap to maybe 450 dps, but I still don't think thats worth it in terms of pure, overall raid dps. Lastly, how important is shadow embrace to our raid? If we lose it, do we suddenly wipe a whole bunch more or something? I guess we technically don't even have it right now, and we seem to do ok.
Well this brings up a very
garreth — Thu, 05/08/2008 - 22:07Well this brings up a very good question I've always wanted a hard and fast answer to:
Do the buffs and utility they add to a raid more than make up for the lack of personal dps?
This article from wowinsider does a good job of going over the pros and cons: http://www.wowinsider.com/2008/04/17/blood-pact-destro-the-only-way-to-go/ They essentially say that affliction at early gearing levels is really great dps, but as you progress, destruction more than surpasses affliction do the improved gear. But this is regarding pure dps, <em>not</em> raid utility.
I do know that no bleeding-edge progressive raids run with affliction locks anymore. Now, we're not those guys. But are they on to something that we're not?
On second read. I agree that
Coryni — Thu, 05/08/2008 - 22:05On second read. I agree that Malediction and shadow embrace
are the utmost important for an aff lock to have. Looking at Py's spec
tonight I noticed he has no points in shadow embrace. Instead he has
spent them in amp curse, CoEx and instant howl of terror. Some of which
are arguably leaning toward pvp spells.
My two cents to help my fellow raider whom I would love to see in raid as aff.
I understand what aff lock
Coryni — Thu, 05/08/2008 - 21:54I understand what aff lock is. I was an aff lock for three years. I just respeced dest. Py took my spot as aff lock in LF1M. I wish him the best. It is a hard spec to push dps out of.
Note: My ass was ridden about my dps as an aff lock too. It hovered around 800ish.
To answer your question
Pyrael — Thu, 05/08/2008 - 21:31To answer your question coryni, yes, dps : damage per second, but if you look at Hamfist's latest kills in Hyjal on tuesday, our resident affliction lock Weave barely breaks 1k dps on any given fight (he breaks 1.1k on rage) and is much much better geared than pyrael. Affliction is also shafted in terms of group buffs. Affliction has the imp. The tank wants the imp, therefore you get no shadowpriest, no totems, usually not even a bm hunter. Look at group composition and you'll see most of the dmg casters have mana tide, vampiric touch or both, with maybe a heroism or two mixed in. Pyrael has leader of the pack. Don't kick a raider who isn't doing as well as the other casters when the other casters have major group benefits that caster does not. Py could go destruction, spam shadowbolt and put up huge dps numbers (the dps would be higher by virtue of the big rapid numbers versus the lower ticks of all his dots, which counts as more steady, less spiky dmg) But then your tank wouldn't have an imp. the raid wouldn't have Malediction, or shadow embrace. One lock is affliction for a reason, and most locks choose to go destruction because they get tired of being stuck with the tank. My five cents for my friend who is trying very hard to perform well.
-Epatrick
Doesn't dps stand for damage
Coryni — Thu, 05/08/2008 - 18:34Doesn't dps stand for damage per second?
Damage out might be low from being dead in the grass?
I was looking at the parses
Epatrick — Thu, 05/08/2008 - 18:29I was looking at the parses with py's dps for 700 something...he's only present for 73% of the fight. doom with no brez? that'd be a major loss of dps, as you don't do much damage cold and dead on the grass.
Dufe, Yeah the drop in dps
Coryni — Thu, 05/08/2008 - 18:22Dufe,
Yeah the drop in dps was me trying to stay alive in part but also I was in SR gear ><
Sorry sir will not let it happen again :p
atar becomes an angry panda
Grovinski — Thu, 05/08/2008 - 11:44atar becomes an angry panda irl when he dies.
True story.
HAHAHAHA!!! You know I
Atar — Thu, 05/08/2008 - 11:39HAHAHAHA!!! You know I have noticed that whenever I'm dpsing and I take a hit that I get like 10k worth of heals in 2sec. I feel like the healers think I'm going to dock their FR points if I die........or maybe I am.....lol
My three stacks of lifebloom heals me for about 160 I think. So it's not as OP as you think. That's why I cast a regrowth on myself.
Oh and although you will say
Dragon — Thu, 05/08/2008 - 11:48Oh and although you will say this doesnt matter much.
6200 Mana I think last night raid buffed.
Holy Light=840 Mana
Dead if I don't heal, Oom if I do heal......................no dps either way. Maybe if the heals actually hit for something decent (growls at blizzard).
BTW Grov, fucking win post..........just fucking win
~Legendary Nobody