Moonkin Dps
Disrupter — Tue, 03/10/2009 - 12:04
I've been pouring over parses for a while now, and this is what I found.
There are a few key things to a moonkin's dps rotation.
Q 1) Proper dot management, when do you renew the dots? When do you let them fall of completely?
A 1) For moonfire, there generally isn't a time where you'd rather let moonfire fall off and not renew it immediately afterwards. The only example that comes to mind is a boss fight you know you're going to move momentarily, within the next few seconds, and moonfire is just about to fall off. That way you can do something useful while you move.
Prime example is Grobbulus. You know he'll be moved in a moment and your dots are just about to fall off. If you dot now, you'll move and do nothing, if you dot when you move your damage will go up. That seperates a "good" caster dps from the "average", ability to think ahead on rotations.
My Results: I've been going through the parses logfiles to check how my applications on dots, particular moonfire, were doing. I'm generally within less than a global, my moonfire dot times are quite good. Checking over parses the possible # of ticks for our last patchwerk kill was about 51 and I had 48 which is excellent.
A moonkin of my gear will not renew a insect swarm in any haste buff or eclipse scenario, but they will renew moonfire. So if you get a Power Infusion, Haste Pot, Trinket Haste Proc, Eclipse proc, or even heroism... do not renew insect swarm.
Q 2) Eclipse, how do I manage eclipse.. which eclipse proc do I want?
A 2) Currently the preferred Eclipse proc is the starfire 30% critical strike chance. A lack of crit on gear/raid buffs can make getting said proc a pain but it's still in the end more dps than the wrath proc unless you have absolutely zero haste and can make full benefit of nature's grace on wrath..
My Results: I've been within 4 seconds and rarely 5 seconds on my eclipse procs it seems. (This is from when I gain eclipse, to when I land my starfire.) That's actually very good. Anything short of 4 seconds is either luck or, like myself, you watch for a natures grace proc when you're casting wrath and immediately switch to starfire. If it didn't proc, you hope your starfire didn't crit. (Next patch this will be more doable as the wrath eclipse isn't as bad as before.)
Q 3) Treants, /sigh.
A 3) /sigh.. They're a large dps increase if used properly. They recieve buffs such as battle shout(yes it ups their dps rawriors battleshout when you see those trees!) and most notable heroism. If your raid heroisms at a specific time and your pets will live the duration, summon them right before heroism directly behind the boss and you'll be good to go.
My Results: If we call heroism, my treants rape face :<. They'd kill 4-5 of our squishier raid members if I could sick them on them muahahaha.
My overall dps recently has been about 5750. What my rotation primarily is (note don't do this) is IS MF Wrath SF during eclipse/haste procs. I'll be -trying- (do this) switching to the starfire idol, and -only- casting wrath when it can proc eclipse, starfire period otherwise. Going off parses that should zoom me up past 6k. We shall see.
So tonight on Patchwerk, I'm hoping to break 6k. Warriors that aren't doing commanding please throw up a battle shout if you have the global when we heroism for treant raping goodness. And if we could count down the heroism that'd be excellent.
Ok ty rupter I wanted to be
bluetouguyss — Thu, 03/12/2009 - 19:25Ok ty rupter I wanted to be clear on that. Also do you put the three points into the improved treants? I have looked at your talent tree before but I dont remember you having it at the time but I know you switch between pvp and pve daily so maybe I just missed it. In my current spec I dont believe I do have it because I was running low on mana and needed some more mana regen talents.
I'm always specced into
Disrupter — Thu, 03/12/2009 - 20:38I'm always specced into improved treants raiding spec or not.
ty for the info rupter. I
bluetouguyss — Wed, 03/11/2009 - 21:15ty for the info rupter. I have been near the top of dps meters lately with my ok gear and have got some better pieces and was wondering if I was doing the right rotation. I was spamming SF til eclipse then wrath. I will try your way and see if I get a good increase.
I also didnt know about the treants and heroism. So is it better to wait for on longer fights where you have a chance to use it twice or just the one time during heroism?
If you can only use treants
Disrupter — Wed, 03/11/2009 - 21:23If you can only use treants once, wait to do so right before heroism, if you can do it twice, do it once immediately and then the 2nd time if you can right before heroism.
Ok I finally figured it out
Disrupter — Wed, 03/11/2009 - 07:28Ok I finally figured it out what exactly went wrong last night. Last night on our immortal run I was attempting to break 6k dps on patchwerk via a few extra raid buffs I normally don't get. (Such as 3% crit from Poison Donut/ Moriellas Power Infusion on eclipse proc instead of like half way through a heroism etc.) I was also using a different rotation. My normal rotation consists of:
IFF(If no spriest), IS, MF, Wrath(Primary filler unless hasted up), Starfire(Only during Eclipse/Haste procs).
This is a fine rotation, it does quite well, but the more haste/crit you get the more and more your wrath starts to clip gbcds on wrath because of it. The -new- rotation was:
IFF(If no spriest), IS, MF, Wrath(ONLY if eclipse was off CD), Starfire(Primary nuke while dots are up.
Both rotations assuming IS falls off during haste increases.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I got screwed from both ends via human error and crap tastic rng. My crit rate is terrible. My starfire crit chance should be around 70%, while my wrath around 50%. As you can see both are craptasticly low based off this parse:
http://wowwebstats.com/hub21iwf161d5?s=427367-458610&a=x7340b7
Moonkin dps is highly reliant on getting their crits to get their procs. If I don't crit, I get less eclipse procs and less nature's grace procs which means over all less dps. Even though it's our lowest dps stat, it's still very important.
I also messed up a couple of things:
My "OH GOD SALV ME PLEASE PALLIES" macro wouldn't go through and I stopped dps for a split second and mashed it again and it finally went through. That was lost dps time, won't happen again... button on mouse is effed up/finicky but I have a new gaming mouse in the mail /cheers.
I have a problem where I'll kind of mix two things I've learned to make it into my own little creation. Even with writing papers for school I'd write half of it in cursive and half of it in print... Similiar thing happened here. My hand is trained to press certain buttons and I found myself casting more wraths then I was supposed to.
Lastly, I botched up my last eclipse proc, I lost a haste buff as I casted another starfire and thus the speed wasn't fast enough to land before the eclipse cd came up... and it actually crit so I ended up with a Wrath eclipse proc during a heroism which is terrible.
The good news is, treants went well, I barely got them off in time to get the heroism it looks like lol.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The summary is I fucked up my rotation enough that it'd make a difference but even more I got fucked by a ~20% less crit chance then normal.
Ok I finally figured it out
Disrupter — Wed, 03/11/2009 - 07:45Failkin r double poster, spot reserved for future I guess!.
helping our moonkin....
moriella — Tue, 03/10/2009 - 17:04I'll try to call out PI for ya too rupter. If I put it in rotation, I should be able to pop it 2x, IF i know when heroism is going to be called out ahead of time, since they dont stack and I've wasted more than a few PI this way.
Note : I would gladly spread the PI love around to Mages and Warlocks too, if it was warranted
Well no need to make an
Disrupter — Wed, 03/11/2009 - 08:24Well no need to make an excuse to give it to me instead of a pure dps like a mage or warlock. The parses can decide who gets what but throwing this out there. As long as our mages are arcane, you must be very very careful with giving them PI as to not over ride their arcane power. It will completely remove the buff.
As for locks, don't you spend most of your "sitting and nuking" time during the souldrain op effect range? And otherwise primaryily throw up instant or quick cast dots?
dps buffs
moriella — Wed, 03/11/2009 - 16:49Our mages and locks, our 'pure' dps classes, have consistantly produced far less DPS than our thunder chicken. Thats why I buff the chicken. Buffing someone doing 5000 dps makes much more sense than buffing someone doing 3800 dps. If parses show other classes are becoming competitive then I can spread it around. Until then, it goes on who will make the most use of it.
LIES LIES and MOAR(IELLA) LIES!
poisondonut — Fri, 03/13/2009 - 06:12"Our mages and locks, our 'pure' dps classes, have consistantly produced far less DPS than our thunder chicken. Thats why I buff the chicken. Buffing someone doing 5000 dps makes much more sense than buffing someone doing 3800 dps. If parses show other classes are becoming competitive then I can spread it around. Until then, it goes on who will make the most use of it."
I don't know if you've been keeping up with the dps meters lately mori, but i've been wrecking shit. I havent been consistently beat by anyone lately on almost any fight as arcane 57/3/11. on our immortal run i said my dps would suck cause it was a new spec i had never played 51/20. it is quite different. but if you look at all of our 6 minute malygos attempts, i have been at the top of every single fight before dragons. 7k plus dps from yours truly.
This isnt me sucking my own cock, but just a reminder to KB that mages have gone through alot of changes and you wont see me at low numbers such as 3800dps ever again (that was as super RNG FFB spec).
FUCK CHICKENS! (that is all, <3 you rupta)
statistics and damn statistics
moriella — Fri, 03/13/2009 - 09:10PeeDee,
Funny you mention this, but just yesterday I said to myself
So, after your post - I decided to re evaluate my thinking and I took the time to go back thru every KB parse since Jan 14th. I didnt use parses where you and rupta didnt have over 90% presence. I also threw out any parse that both of you were not in attendance. I used overall dps for the entire parse, not selecting any single fight. I included naxx runs, maly runs, arch, and sarth. I ended up with 17 samples used to calculate average DPS.
Results
Gnome : 3806 average DPS
ThunderChicken : 4013 average DPS
My results were closer than I expected.
You have been raiding as the solo mage and not been specced into scorch, because it makes you pew pew harder. However, a solo raid mage should always be specced scorch as it adds so much dps for the raid.
If you were always specced into scorch , I dont think anyone would expect you to be at the top of the dps pile, as you bring a massive raid buff at the cost of a little dps.
Bottom line, until we run with two mages and you can make the 'new guy' the 'scorch bitch', you should always be specced scorch.
If you were consistantly higher than everyone as arcane, you could possibly make a point as why you shouldnt be specced scorch, but it would still be very hard indeed to justify.
not specced into scorch?
poisondonut — Fri, 03/13/2009 - 14:39There was one raid where I was not specced into scorch, and this was about two weeks ago. the other times that I have been arcane, dangulz has been there to keep scorch up for the raid. this week for immortal run i respecced so that the raid would have the scorch debuff on targets. and yes, this week my dps sucked balls. and those parses reach back into january. I have only been arcane since maybe a week into february.
Yes, disrupta brings imp FF for the 3%hit which we all appreciate. but. its in the balance tree.
As arcane, my most viable spec is 57/3/11 (arcane/fire/frost). where the improved scorch talent is 18 points deep into fire. losing icy veins is a huge dps loss for me, along with having a funky rotation that involves arcane blast, arcane missiles, abarrage and then scorchwtf!. not to mention a glyph loss to bring scorch to the raid, another huge dps loss. the difference in dps between FFB and arcane is 1.5k plus for me.
So, im definitely sacrificing more.
Here's hoping blizzard gives like 5 other classes the crit buff so that mages can spec for pew pew. (maybe they'll give it to moonkins and have it be 20 talent points deep into feral, then see rupta's dps) This isnt at jab at you rupta, just pointing out the difference.
also, this isnt me competing for power infusion, as rupta said, it overwrites arcane power, and that is something I would never want.
as another side note (lol i know this is getting long) im gonnatry something else. if you are willing mori, im gonna spec for absorption, and with you PW;shielding me every 15-20 seconds, i should be able to gain upwards of 1000 spell power from this talent. i'm thinking it will really only be useful for saph and possibly kt, but, it could be fun to see what numbers i get.
If this means a sacrificing a shield on someone more important (im thinking MT) then obviously we wont be able to do it.
So about this whole Scorch
saedo — Fri, 03/13/2009 - 18:03So about this whole Scorch talk
scorch is 5%? horrible
poisondonut — Fri, 03/13/2009 - 19:12where'd ya read this, i was on mmo and found nothing.
i just read it, fuckin awful.
also, mirror images no longer cast polymorph, fuck you very much blizzard.
MMO itself. Front page
saedo — Fri, 03/13/2009 - 19:59MMO itself. Front page scroll down and look at mage section. Also would be on the WoW Website patch notes area.
Moonkins, as far as I could
Disrupter — Fri, 03/13/2009 - 17:41Moonkins, as far as I could tell, bring the biggest caster benefit to any one raid over any other caster. By that I mean, I bring moar buffs!
3% hit, 3% haste, 5% crit, Armor Ignore, 13% spell damage increase. The hit's not for the melee but the armor pen is (even if it's not an amazing dps stat.) You could probably out dps me with your gear as moonkins are considered the -middle- of the hybrids, not the best or the worse.
As for the buffs, I can guarantee that some of our ranged aren't getting Vulks version of the buff, so that's a + for the raid and means I'll definitely not spec out of it. 13% sp is a necessity imo, as for fights like malygos we aren't going to have a Dk/Lock throwing up their debuff on every single add in the sky ;p, 5% crit Luczilla can bring but if he has to stop deepz to throw heals or something along those lines or gets shit on by RNG, we always have that buff. Lastly, if we has no spriest or feral, we have imp ff still :D.
I'm waiting for the day you hit 7k on Patchwerk, it's bound to happen, eventually we will all do enough dps that your dps will sky rocket based on your cds. I'm hoping this week myself to break 6k, I was given buffs I never ever had last week and I did the SAME effing dps as the week before >:|.
This is last weeks dps, my crit rate is much better, much closer to what it should be in fact right on par.
http://wowwebstats.com/asquzi5lbrx5i?s=427369-458620&a=x7340b7
While tihs week dps, my crit rate was 20% lower on my primary nukes, which is massive MASSIVE massive less dps then normal. All classes have some form of rng to them, moonkins rely on their crit to maintain a steady rotation and im sitting at over 50% static crit last patchwerk kill, while only critting ~30% of my wraths? Combine in starfire critting more often, because it recieves more crit from other talents -and- eclipise procs.
So next week, I will be very suprised (assuming the same buffs and me not screwing up my rotation) if I don't break 6k. Very, very surprised. Rawr was saying 3% crit was over 170 dps for a moonkin in my gear... Now I'm not expecting to shoot up over a thousand dps but seriously fuck you rng, fuck you to hell.
Waaaait! Armor Pen is a
saedo — Fri, 03/13/2009 - 17:52Waaaait! Armor Pen is a good stat. FF is good. It's a significant dps boost. Not like Sunder Armor, but both should be used all the time anyways.
It's Armor Pen Rating that's weak. Takes too much atm to get equal dps benefits than other stats. It's better next patch though, but doubt it'd become best or anything. Just a decent secondary stat rather than weakest.
shielding
moriella — Fri, 03/13/2009 - 15:00No worries. I can CURRENTLY shield a different raid member every 5 seconds. The CD on weakened soul means I can generally keep shields on up to 3 ppl at one time, tho two is more viable.
We can try that on some fights if you like. However, I dont know if I'll be able to do this in 3.1 due to mana issues
&%^* CHICKENS! (that is all,
Fjork — Fri, 03/13/2009 - 08:30&%^* CHICKENS! (that is all, <3 you rupta)
Looks like rupta's gettin some donut lovins.
Well, I guess chickens and gnomes are about the same size......
Should give me 3% crit imo..
Agoney — Fri, 03/13/2009 - 08:12Should give me 3% crit imo.. thats 3% more dmg for sw:p, vt and dp :P
Agreed Mori. Highest output
Derchlon — Wed, 03/11/2009 - 17:50Agreed Mori. Highest output generally gets the most out of buffs such as PI. Why get less benefit from PI from a Mage, when the net DPS from giving it to you would be a gain? Same reason Lumi got Hysteria all the time as BM, iirc. He got more out of it than a lot of classes at the time. As Survival, only 48% of my damage is physical, so Hysteria wouldn't be as much of a boost to me as to a Ret Pally, Rogue, or other physical dps class. Even Onrique hits somewhere around 51% physical damage, and would get more out of it than me.
My point is that you shouldn't feel guilty about getting buffs that increase your damage. Live with it.
Yes, give him all your
Derchlon — Tue, 03/10/2009 - 17:29Yes, give him all your buffs! I need a solid Boomkin number to try and beat.
Let's count down heroisms
garreth — Tue, 03/10/2009 - 15:06Let's count down heroisms plx!
As a note, many summoned pets
Dragon — Tue, 03/10/2009 - 16:18As a note, many summoned pets benefit from heroism (non UH DKs when they summon their ghouls, wolfpacks etc), so counting it down could help many people in general not just Fried Chicken
I'll fry you!
Disrupter — Tue, 03/10/2009 - 16:19I'll fry you!
10... 9... 8... 7.... 6....
Disrupter — Tue, 03/10/2009 - 15:1710... 9... 8... 7.... 6.... WAIT WAIT WAIT... kk... 5.... 4.... NO NO... 3.... 2... WAIT.... OK 1!
Let's just have Rupta call
saedo — Tue, 03/10/2009 - 15:27Let's just have Rupta call heroism since he wants it so badly! Do it!
I can't think of any dps in
Disrupter — Tue, 03/10/2009 - 15:57I can't think of any dps in raid that, atleast to some extent, wouldn't benefit from knowing when heroism is happening ahead of time.