If this doesn't reach 100 responses, I'll be surprised
garreth — Sat, 03/28/2009 - 00:36
http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1887728-1,00.html
Read it. Every last word. Let it sink in. Read all four pages, you slackers.
This is us. This is where we're at and this is why.
I don't think anyone's made
Shihli — Sun, 03/29/2009 - 13:29I don't think anyone's made the argument that we can't change anything. But the problem is, indeed, global - the world's major economies (USA, Japan, China, and the EU) are collapsing.
True enough, Shi, I was
jaibyrd — Sun, 03/29/2009 - 18:54True enough, Shi, I was however trying to get the focus back to what the article was pointing out. There have been 'global' collapses before in history. The British Empire collapsed, the Roman one...and I'm pretty sure there were a few others too. Even if the finaces of this empire collapse people will still need to have food and shelter. The food is being produced, the shelters are available. Somehow I forgot my point I'll have to write this later when I'm not busy.
Yes, I can say global
Shihli — Sun, 03/29/2009 - 12:19Yes, I can say global problem, Mori - because I did say it's a global problem.
I'd imagine that the reason
garreth — Sun, 03/29/2009 - 00:36I'd imagine that the reason we haven't heard from Dufe yet is that he's still typing his dissertation to this.
As a personal note: My undergrad and master's work was centered around, basically, becoming a raging capitalist. I went to school to learn the formula's and how-tos of the corporate world so that I could grab a slice of the pie. I bleed capitalist red and there's nothing more I love than good, healthy commerce.
But it's just that - "healthy commerce" - that we haven't had in this country in a generation. We've had something else. Something shortsighted, something so focused on next quarter's reports that the whole system refused to look ahead even a decade.
When my finance professor told my MBA class that it was our jobs, as fresh new managers in this "Economy 2.0", to push our company's growth by double digits each quarter for our entire professional lives, I raised my hand and politely disagreed with him. I explained that a "magic number" of growth couldn't possibly sustain a company and those beholden to it for long with that kind of focus. I was told that it was not my job to create sustainability. It was my job to create wealth for the shareholders.
For a little more insight into the "hard numbers" of how we got here, I recommend that you read this Wired article: http://www.wired.com/techbiz/it/magazine/17-03/wp_quant At the time of my graduate work, we were all referring back to the formula talked about in that article.
Also, Mori, I know you have a background in the financial sector. Fill us in a little on that. I've heard the "The Federal Reserve is unconstitutional" argument before. It's good to see it clarified here.
I think you hit the crux of
jaibyrd — Sat, 03/28/2009 - 22:16I think you hit the crux of the point there Derch 'live within their own means' Really that is all it takes. Simple. Spend what you can afford and live frugally. However after such a long gluttony of instant gratification the grownups are all having a wee bit of trouble with this one. There is a bit of a difference in 'I deserve the best of everything' and 'fiscal responsibility' though they can be mutually accomplished.
I know we can do these things; I see it in my small town. I see the people saving what they can and spending what they can afford. Then I see some spend too much and drive to fast and boss everyone around then lose their jobs and have to sell everything to pay their debts and end up with nothing after 10 years or so. Then they leave town broke. I've seen the cycle twice already. It breaks my heart to see. Can people learn? Yes! Will they? That really is the issue. I hope so.
Something An Economics Prof tought me
moriella — Sat, 03/28/2009 - 06:09If a citizen of the USA and a German Citizen were both given a 5000.00 bonus, the german will save 10-20% of it, and pay debts with the rest. The American will take a vacation, then come home and buy a big screen on Credit
Coincidentally, spending
Shihli — Sat, 03/28/2009 - 12:36Coincidentally, spending money is what the economy needs right now so that's not a bad thing
I agree Shihli but people
Dikymo — Sat, 03/28/2009 - 13:53I agree Shihli but people need to spend money that they have or CAN repay. 80% of the country cant afford the things that they want but they buy them anyway and are raked into paying for it 4 to 6 times over because they are too stupid to read the credit terms(that there is no government oversight on.)
Mortgages are one thing, but at least that's a secured debt. Credit cards give you imaginairy money to buy shit you dont need with money you dont have. I know I know "IT WAS ON SALE WITH 0% INTEREST!" Congrats. Problem is, you are only going to pay your minimum payment over the 0% term and then get racked with the acrued interest and pay 10 times what its worth anyway.... Sweet deal.
We are here because we are greedy and stupid.
spending.
cromi — Sun, 03/29/2009 - 22:59Well thats part of the problem is people are not spending and places are going under which all stems from an economy relying upon the stock market, which stems from an increase in home prices. And the collapse all begin with people taking too much home prices. It can also be contributed to jobs being sent over seas which im not blaming but it is unhealthy for a company to have jobs overseas but revenue going to the stock markets in any certain country where the money is actually made by company in america with very little jobs in america. The imaginary money is also the problem is because Credit was preying on people who could not pay it back, and they would never pay it back and people profited on imaginary money. The credit also came about during the 1920s which was before the downfall which is one of the main contributions to the great depression. So this "recession" can be considered a repitition of the great depresion with a twist which is that we have the FDIC. Which is going to be a bit difficult to watch knowing that the government has to payback to people if banks go under.
The problem with getting people to spend, which every stimulus packet is going to have in it, is that action of giving more money to the people creates inflation. That inflation does not help the economy because people in there basic human fears begin to become scared about money issues. Usually in these events the last thing to increase would be the paychecks which causes even more strife because without enough money to spend the recession restarts, nothing restarts we have an even larger deficet of spending to inflation.
Why I was happy to see that the bailout plan did not just give people money but had a healthy combination of where tax cuts should be, where jobs need to be created, and in all fairness giving people a rebate to increase the economy at least for time being. I think Obama is smart also in that if you look at this he is using it to increase the job layout for green technology, much like germany did by giving there tax cut to solar panels and how it is a very large industry there. I would also not be suprised to see high tarrifs placed over overseas goods after this fallout.
I agree completely, and I'm
Shihli — Sat, 03/28/2009 - 14:21I agree completely, and I'm not sure how I implied I didn't :x
I didnt think you disagreed.
Dikymo — Sat, 03/28/2009 - 14:58I didnt think you disagreed. I was expanding on your statement with my long winded rant.
interesting read
Kogarasumaru — Sat, 03/28/2009 - 04:01that was quite the read. I bet you will get 100 responses but out of them how many will actually read the entire article.
Nice rant by Mr. Anderson.
jaibyrd — Sat, 03/28/2009 - 01:10Nice rant by Mr. Anderson. Time for the ruby slippers to take us all home (USA and Canada too) and do what we know works to get through all this muck we have created. We're plucky alright but are we actually aware/awake enough to notice or care?
If it can penetrate a
garreth — Sat, 03/28/2009 - 01:16If it can penetrate a WoW-based forum... it can penetrate anywhere. I'll post a picture of me eating my own underwear if Warion reads every last word of this article.
That's a promise.
I'll have to read this when
Shihli — Sat, 03/28/2009 - 01:18I'll have to read this when I'm coherent and capable of thought.
All I know is, the stupidity of those responsible cost me my job.
America's Power
carno — Mon, 03/30/2009 - 23:31I believe both Moriella and Dufe. I also think that's a fantastic article if not, just for the last paragraph, because it's so true. There's some things worth adding to this conversation which sound like conspiracy; it's really like the song Hotel California.
I know from endowed friends that our currency system is owned by Morgan, Sachs and friends... it's not just a tall tell. Let's be straight up though, these guys were and still are some smart mother fuckers. Raiding wow content in 2 days is NOTHING -- these guys raided the entire US economy in one day. It's a VERY long rabbit hole. Actually, it's more like a rabbit dungeon.
That said, we have no control over the current currency system. Indeed, it's a global market; it's a market owned by few, controlled by nobody, and owed by millions, but still a market. It's not going to go away and certainly not overnight or a presidential term.
Until recently, when JP Morgan bought Chase, and Chase bought WaMU, not all of the big fed banks were open for deposits from all US consumers. Now that Chase covers 49% of all US soil (which is like, a retarded amount of the population), you can have your money backed by them. Of course, if you want an account with the "JP Morgan", they require a minimum $2m balance.
Yes, it's true, the rich get richer. So, the intelligent thing to do is work the system. Of course, if you're at the bottom you may have to pool together, use a bit more ingenuity, and just stay at it. I just read Shihli lost his job as a result of the economy. That's what friends, family, and unemployment (if your employer wasn't a dick) are for. A lot of folks in DF would give the shirt off their backs for another and that's something to be optimistic about and to live for.
Either you are saving money, spending more than you make, or living on the edge between. With how things are going you have to be very disciplined if you don't start out with endowments. In fact, if you're employed in the wrong industry and live in the wrong part of town, the odds are stacked against you, like say, finding water in the desert. Either way, credit is important now. In fact, the credit system is so fucked up but it's a system worth learning. Right now I pay $300/mo for car insurance because I have "OK" credit. If I had the best credit, I would pay $150/mo. It's so stupid and has nothing to do with my driving but that's what insurance companies get away with because they can. For all they care, I can walk and take public transportation - I don't have to have a car. It's a luxury and therefore they'll exploit me for as much as they can get away with. The credit scoring lets them get away with it. For the last few years I've been working on credit so I too can pay car insurance at the same rate as people who've never had to take on debt to buy a car. If you don't believe me, go to All State's auto insurance site, do a "ballpark quote" and look at the quote change if you alter the credit rating.
Taxes are a cover, a culprit, and a crutch, but they are also engineered with a lot of wiggle room. Whether by having a family, having a job on the side, or giving away money, chances are you can write off your taxes down to almost nothing. There are other unusual ways but the general rule is, if you save your money or purchase anything but a house, you're going to have to pay taxes. Changing taxes (up or down) has historically done nothing because corporations always find and/or lobby ways around them. Did you know if you buy house in 2009, you can get a large ($8k?) credit on your 2008 taxes? It's crazy things like that where no matter what your tax bracket is, there's always a way to pay taxes (cough) "more efficiently". It's all in the tax code when you file your 1099 and isn't too hard to figure out if you can take the time to read what's pertinent to you.
I feel everything will be fine over the next 30 or so years but nobody has any idea what's going to happen short-term and as someone else said, people will still need food. Just don't forget that what we're going through today is nothing compared to what could happen next time. Ironically, as fucked up as some Americans have made the economy, that's nothing compared to the effects of how fast the world population is climbing.
As far as swiss banks and tax evasion, that seems like a skit to me. Most Americans (ie, Warren Buffet) aren't bringing their money back to the US until it's cheaper to do so anyways -- they own foreign subsidiaries and grow off of foreign capital so they don't have to pay the tax man. If there were two banks, Bank A and Bank B, and you got charged money to use Bank A, and Bank B *gave* you money if you filled out some paperwork, which would you choose? Yes, US has the (almost) highest capital gains rate, but, US is also not the Mafia.
On an economical scale this whole event (housing, cdo, and auto bubble popping at the same time) is ironic and tragic. Until 2007 we (Bush) was lining up the USD and oil to become THE currency in the world economy. Now that we've faltered it's given other countries a chance to change that. And, now they will.
http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5jdMBsLng0dClAEJRCyDcT...
Will we get out of this mess? I think so. We will get out of it if we fuck it up again? No.
IMO, it could be a really fun ride. As grim as all this looks I'd say there's ample opportunity that didn't exist before. Well, unless you're a mortgage broker anyways.
Long thread hoping this goes
Caronte22 — Mon, 03/30/2009 - 19:50Long thread hoping this goes longer and damn you Garreth that was 4 pages of stuff to read plus post in the forum to get all caught up. But it was worth it thanks keep finding good stuff like this :D.
I really wish are society can get rid of the stupid irresponsible Aholes that are costing American and other country men jobs.