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Poll
What do you think about no flying for an entire expansion?
YES) It makes me feel more immersed in the game lore.
15%
YES) It encourages more PvP! (Please explain how in comments)
5%
YES) I miss riding my ground mounts.
9%
MAYBE) If you make all of my flying mounts able to be ground too.
8%
MAYBE) if ground mounts are sped up to 200% speed (or higher)
26%
NO) I don't have enough time when I'm on to be riding everywhere
7%
NO) I have spent too much time getting various levels of flying to be wasting it.
11%
NO) It encourages more PVP! (please explain in the comments)
0%
NO) I love flying.
19%
Total votes: 74
no activity in a mo,
Grasen — Fri, 05/29/2009 - 15:27no activity in a mo, closeing.
I'll work on fixing the page
garreth — Wed, 04/22/2009 - 00:36I'll work on fixing the page breaks in the comments on guild apps. It's a site feature issue.
Well I will give you props
Dragon — Tue, 04/21/2009 - 06:29Well I will give you props that so far you have listened to many of the comments here and frankly I'm glad that I waited a day to post. I have just looked you up on armory and here are some things that I have noted.
#1. Your MT Spec (this one I am assuming is your 0/53/18 build) does not have PoJ and you do not have Tuskar's Vitality on your boots to make up for it. Personally I would drop the weapon chain on your weapon. http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#scZE0tAbuMuRfufdts00b is what I would run if I was main tanking something. PoJ is good, especially once you get into Ulduar where many encounters are movement intensive. Replace the weapon chain with either Agility or Accuracy for now. the 3 points in SotP will provide you with additional threat consistently as opposed to conviction which gives more bursty threat.
#2. Although you have been changing items (now that we have pointed them out), we have had to point them out to you specifically, so the other people who have replied can be said to have been rightly justified in telling you to go look up your class.
#3. If I give you 30 minutes notice that you will be raiding with me, can I count on you to pick up enough flasks for the entire duration of the run+pots+food to last the entire run?
#4. I will come out and say this although others haven't. One thing you do have going for you is being a female dwarf, however it's only slightly in your favor being an anomaly.
#5. If possible I will try to talk to your former guild masters and see what they DO have to say about you. And depending I will either ask you about it in game or post it here.
I would not expect to leave our application process anytime soon as you have a long road ahead of you. And most likely an even longer one until you become a raider once you do get in. We do believe in being a community first and a raiding guild second. My advice at this point would be to /join dfrecruit and try to tank 5 and 10s whenever possible as those are the tanks that are most often needed in guild.
Edit: I just had to edit my post to put in breaks. All you have to do (and I suggest you do this too) is to go and click edit at the bottom of your comments, and then readd them in the rich text format so they appear. More than once I have overlooked your comment and just read the replies due to the huge wall of text that your comments appear as.
Ahhhh, nice hearing from you
Lorb — Tue, 04/21/2009 - 06:46Ahhhh, nice hearing from you grov. I already miss healing you. Downfall healers don't let their tanks die. :)
I think that most of the
Grovinski — Mon, 04/20/2009 - 19:32I think that most of the people who've commented thus far have hit some really good points, a lot of stuff that I would have pointed out. The spec by itself is... interesting. There's a lot of wasted points in holy, and imo LoH is not all that its cracked up to be, yes it is a good "oh shit" but there are a lot better like Ghli mentioned. Having that on a smaller CD won't really make a whole lot of difference in a heal intensive fight. I would be taking a silence and stun resist over a fear reduction anyday. (that's why we have priest fear wards).
Also, with the changes that prior patches came out with, the amount of mana that you had no longer was as important, especially as a prot paladin, so having 15% more mana again to me seems wasteful. Excusing poor enchants by saying you forgot and didn't have money seems a bit silly to me considering you had enough to buy duel spec, doing only a few dailies a day will net you quite a bit so I'm confused how you couldn't have had any money prior to wrath if you really play as much as you say you do.
"Having it there is better than not having anything at all" tells me that you're not really willing to put forth the effort it requires to raid. Maybe its just me, but when I tanked, whether it was a 5 man or a 25 man, I sure as hell would make sure that my gear ect was optimal to properly do my job. If I was down gold, so be it, I'm not about to step into a position where people rely on me and not give them 100% as much as I can.
My biggest suggestion to you, would be to re-evaluate what you really want and if you're actually willing to put forth the effort towards it. Mentality aside, there are many very good resources online that can help greatly, personally I've found that MainTankadin has some amazing tips and theorycraft for aspiring and veteran tanks.
Thoughts
Fjork — Mon, 04/20/2009 - 10:03What things might cause you to leave?:
Disrespect from an officer or a fellow guild mate that is just simply uncalled for, i mean if i start it it's one thing and i'll take the blame but treating me like I'm 'beneath you' i will go off
Anything else you would like to add?:
Nothing i can think of right now, Just don't talk to Zinoxe as a reference any one who leaves his guild he bad mouths.
After reading your application, I sense the possibility that you may have misunderstood what Downfall is and represents. If you are looking for a "100% Progression ALL THE TIME" guild, might I recommend you look elsewhere? It is very rare that I have made this recommendation to guild-apps (and I have been wrong twice).
However you might consider evaluating what you want to see when it comes to raiding. End-Game raiding is a great-deal of min/maxing. I will agree that your 3.1 spec is an interesting variation on the survival build for 3.1, but I see alot of holes that need to be evaluated:
Please visit Maintankadin's web-page and tinker around, you're gear might be decent, but you may be able to use it more effectively.
I do want to state that I agree with Shihli and Mor's thoughts with one of my own.
Why if you are in junior high do you not have a bedtime? How are you in Junior High at the age of 17? Little old for that grade?
Also, please bear in mind on your responses that you are basically in full blown "interview" status. Your replies should be carefully thought out, undefensive, and if need be, researched.
I have made some observations on your build, what does your research tell you?
JotJ and me, Previewed and cant make paragraphs
Hildur — Mon, 04/20/2009 - 15:13Well... ok that was alot lol
I'm 17 because i just turned 17 in march i'll be 18 with my graduating class thank you very much.
By the way "L2 paragraph" boy here's me indenting right now.
Many of you suggest that I'm unwilling to use mods, and I've said it at least twice now I'm willing to try them, take from that what you will.
The enchant business, i never changed it because 50 spell power while it may not be an optimal enchant like blade ward is now, it was except able and it didn't hurt by having it there as opposed to not having an enchant on my Weapon at all.
In addition to the Enchant business those of you who've said "2 hours raid time is plenty notice to come up with Flasks and well feds for Hyjal, i was on the Darkspear server at the time and in Burning Crusade Alchemists on that server were impossible to find so they dominated the market primal mights sold at 300g each on that server up until WotLK's release date was announced. Flasks sold for 250g each while i was on the server and i was never a very wealthy player, let's just say i didn't break 2k gold until WotLK came out.
Judgment of the Just... and all other speculation regarding my talent build I'm willing to work with others to make it better i stated that in my last post, Judgment of the Just is something I'm willing to work toward, as far as my spec into unyielding faith.... that's to get to Imp LoH which is a fantastic ability that in my opinion many tankadins should pick up but, do what you will. Would you prefer me to not have reduced fear duration as a tank for pve and instead have 15% more intellect? that does not make as much sense to me. divine guardian, i put it there to in some cases alleviate stress on healers in healing intensive fights, and to improve my Hand of Sacrifice spell and Sacred shield spell, the hand of Sacrifice spell because currently i pug an awful lot and the stereo type is amongst the general populous "is it's got more stam it's a better tank" so paladins are generally the OT's of pugs simply because our base untalented health is lower than a warriors or a Death Knight's in frost presence, plus MT is a role i find that puts a bit to much pressure on the player. the Sacred shield spell i choose to buff through talents because it's now part of the Tankadin's rotation and helps mitigation and a holy paladin's healing. Divinity i agree with the above poster in that it is a waste to go 5/5 deep I'd be willing to spec MAYBE 1-2 points into it should they come up free in a build that perhaps i could talk about with another Tankadin.
As an fyi, when you create
Fjork — Mon, 04/20/2009 - 16:35As an fyi, when you create your posts, you have to choices, use a default html line break, or click 'edit' afterwards for line spacing.
Now, on to your post. My request was not you're reasons, but your justifications. (Please don't take this wrong as the 'tankadin' is still in mass discussion on the 'perfect' spec.)
Why I'm asking for your reason is because one thing the guild prefers is players that A) NOT defensive under constructive criticism, B) Able to research their class themselves by available resources and discover the best/worst reasons FOR doing something.
Now, if your statement was "I understand that Imp LOH isn't a very good talent to take because it detracts from overall TPS, which then forces the DPS to limit themselves, and the healers to heal for a longer time. However, I have been taking it because as a PUG tank, I generally get a crapton of horrid healers and have needed the extra oh-*&^% button."
I would ask once again that you google 'maintankadin' and review the theorycrafting, planning, and recommendations they have throughout the site. Being well geared is a benefit, but being well geared with a deep understanding of your class and spec is just as important.
Situationally, Improved LOH is not a bad talent to spec for, and if your intent for Raiding is off-tank, there would only be a few changes I would recommend for your spec.
However, in return to your statement on the "stamina equals tank" that is actually more of a PUG mentality. True raiders understand that the armor value, mitigation, avoidance, AND stamina are what defines a good tank. With the Divine Plea glyph we have moved from 12% straight mitigation to 15%. Thats approx like a 4k armor boost that applies to magic damage.
I am not a guild officer, or recruiter in general, but I highly recommend you research your class a little further and give a more thought out reply.
Thanks!!!!!!!
You hit the nail on the head
Hildur — Mon, 04/20/2009 - 23:03i am speced in a off tanking role because right now, all i do is off tank pug raids, sir i know my class and the points your brought up are more than valid however i believe i addressed them all in that i said i mainly pug and that i mainly off tank because the mentality is a pug one, i am a victim of my sircumstances, I'm not going to Spec for optimal threat and less survivability if i end up out TPSing the MT it's useless while i can provide utility and survivability through my spec by supporting the MT.... i have glyph of divine plea and i'm not trying to be argumentative but your observations are repetitive and accomplished nothing other than to restate what had already be stated in a more descriptive and sensible fashion to non-tanking players.
If you are truly worried
Ghli — Tue, 04/21/2009 - 07:44If you are truly worried about out TPS the MT, please learn to
modulate your threat, You have tools to get around this.
Get Omen, It shows you your threat, and everyone else's threat on your target.
Don't generate that much threat. Turn off RF and turn it on later. Don't pop AW . Hand of Salv yourself if you do use AW. Don't attack with your specials if you need to
There is absolutely no reason for you to not take a MT spec while off tanking any encounter.
"* 1. No Judgements of the
Prime8 — Mon, 04/20/2009 - 13:32"* 1. No Judgements of the Just. This should be 2/2 along with Improved Hammer of Justice. A three second silence every 20 seconds is nothing to be snubbed. However, I can understand skipping Improved HoJ if you don't use HoJ in your rotation."
Reducing the attack speed of the target is even more important here from a tank's perspective than the reduced CD on HoJ. For melee type bosses, 20% slower attacks means 20% less damage you're taking (assuming you're not getting parried, and no special abilities are being used). This should be a base prot talent.
"* 2. Aura Mastery - As a Tankadin (unless you are 100% Off-tank and have no mobs) this would be a VERY situtational skill to take because as MT you will be draining your healers mana just a little to much from the benefit loss of not having Devotion Aura up.
* 3. Divine Guardian - I'm going to leave this one alone because the theorycrafting is untouched, but what are YOUR reasons for having it?"
Aura Mastery also increases the effectiveness of all auras by 100%, so theoretically he could have it to increase the armor bonus of Devo Aura (not sure if the talent effects the increased healing received from Imp Devo Aura). That said, I can't find a single spec that makes sense for a Prot Pally that includes aura mastery. The closest I can get is 11/53/7, but Vindication or even PoJ seem more worthwhile than Aura Mastery (not to mention benediction), especially with almost all Holy Pallies taking the talent.
With regard to Divine Guardian, I think most people would agree that this isn't meant to be a Prot Pally talent. Having one of your tanks pop DG while they're tanking means they're probably going to die, unless they also pop Divine Shield (aggro wipe), which means the rest of the raid is probably going to die. At best, its a situational Oh-Shit button. **edit - wrong bubble. Ignore this part.
I could almost see specing this way for some really bad class balanced raid groups, say, 24 druids and 1 pally. OTOH, his spec is missing at least one essential, base prot talent and wasting points on some questionable (and only rarely useful) talents. I mean seriously, why put any points in Unyielding Faith for PvE?
/end rant
A few points. "What is your
Shihli — Sat, 04/18/2009 - 19:33A few points.
"What is your favorite 25-man Boss encounter, and why?:
Last Boss of Black Rock Depths, sense Vanilla There hasn't been a dungeon that could consume your whole Saturday and part of Sunday morning, it may have been long and annoying at parts but it was truly Epic. When you Downed him as a 5 man group it was something to be proud of."
Black Rock Depths is not a 25man boss encounter.
"Black Temple - Tanked up until Gorfiend, Killed him and never came back. "
Why did you never go back?
Regarding our point and raid style - in our raids you are considered to have ONE spec. Being a hybrid or having access to dual specs does not change this. Therefore, in our raids, if you are considered Holy, you will be able to spend AP/NAP on Holy gear *ONLY*. Are you comfortable with this? (Holy is just an example)
"Why should we recruit you?:
I'm interested in raiding at a Level where progression and Raiding is the main focus, not surrounding your self with 9 or 24 other people to get the next piece of gear for your self, granted i bet all of us want the gear but I'm pretty sure it's not why Downfall is still together, I'd rather Progress than Screw some one out of a piece of loot cause it betters -My- character or -My- guild mate."
You said absolutely nothing about wanting to be a part of -the guild- or a member of our community. Why should we invite someone who only wants to raid? We're a community first, a raiding guild second.
"Why have you chosen to apply to Downfall?:
Same reason you should recruit me I'm Not here to screw you I'm not here to Screw around i want to progress with consistent raiders."
Same question as above.
"What do you expect to get out of Downfall membership?:
Consistency and Results, i expect to get out of Downfall exactly what i put into it Effort or a Boot."
Same question as above.
"Anything else you would like to add?:
Nothing i can think of right now, Just don't talk to Zinoxe as a reference any one who leaves his guild he bad mouths."
Does he have a reason to bad mouth you?
"How do you feel about mods, particularly in a raid setting?:
I dont like them very much but i'm willing to try new ones before i bad mouth them."
Earlier in guild chat you said something about how you don't like mods because they "make things easier than they need to be". Mods make your UI and the flow of information easier to handle so that you can spend more time focusing on the things that DO matter - where you are, what abilities you use, etc etc. Mods help you, why make something unnecessarily difficult for yourself?
As it stands, right now I would say no to your application but I'm not the final word, nor have you had a chance to respond. So please, enlighten us.
Reply to Every one
Hildur — Sun, 04/19/2009 - 20:58I realize it's not a 25 man encounter, but when i was filling out the necessary fields it said any instance will due, i really dont have a favorite 25 man encounter right now but if i had to pick one on the spot the most Like able would have to be Malygos just because as far as 25s go he's different and exciting for a simple boss --
Never went back because of some disagreements with officers, it was a guild i had just joined and the way their loot system was set up was to encourage people to sit in raids and wait for a spot to open up to keep a good pace, i had raided twice before and they were, I'm assuming, less than pleased with my performance so i stopped raiding with them for about 3 weeks and my class leader said "come to tonight raid we have a minimum of 1 per week or you get the boot." I agreed and showed up with out flasks and with out well feds because i had been given only 2 hours notice, i wasn't brought back until next week he said "Tomorrow night is SSC we're going for fun don't screw up" so i came but raid was canceled and i was removed from guild cause i didn't meet that 1 per week minimum. This was the farthest progressed guild i'd been in, in BC i left about 1 year before WotLK came out. --
I'm fine with any Loot rules as long as they're fair for every one and so far i like your system very much. It's no problem at all just a touch of confusion i wanted to clear up. --
Well I'm not going to make excuses for what i said about the question, but i don't think i'd bring much to a Guild beyond my character and my willingness to help it progress. --
Another hard one for me to answer with out feeling like i'm trying to reword my answer and ask for a second chance, but i want to join down fall because I'm tired of guild drama over stupid little things that don't matter and will never matter and only cause drama cause people don't drop them and I'm pretty sure a strong guild like Downfall wont have explosive Drama. --
Maturity would be nice, something i haven't seen in a long while, i dont mind the stupid jokes but just no drama. --
Maybe, He may say I'm a bad tank but I'd disagree, i don't think he'd say any thing truthful. --
Stand by my stance on mods, but like i said I'll try em be for i knock 'em. --
and as for the Thunder Judge talent, I didnt take it because i was hastily specing and it was the one talent i don't think much of, i never have i -PERSONALLY- would rather have points in reckoning than Thunder Judge because of it's mechanic and unless it's my JoL or JoW or JoJ on the target it is Null... I'd be willing to work with you on my spec if you want to talk but i am fond of my current build.
L2Paragraph...you lost my
Aidin — Mon, 04/20/2009 - 09:45L2Paragraph...you lost my interest 1/2 way through your post.
Just fyi, "I dislike mods
Lorb — Mon, 04/20/2009 - 11:28Just fyi, "I dislike mods because they make things easier than they have to be". WOW creates boss fights with the knowledge of the raiders using mods. So if your told you need a gun for a fight, don't bring a knife and expect to be an assest to your raid. I can only imagine a 25 man raid where no mods are used.
Paragraphing is quite
saedo — Mon, 04/20/2009 - 11:07Paragraphing is quite possibly a browser issue and probably shouldn't be faulted.
Sometimes when you do these comments, the Javascript Rich Text Editor doesn't show up. When that happens, the window you're seeing is trying to accept full HTML format text. So with that, special characters like new lines never show up. Unless you html tag your post. Which I doubt most people can/would do.
But, editing your post right after usually brings up the Rich Text Editor again. That's what people could do if they realize what's going on.
"Paragraphing is quite
Aidin — Mon, 04/20/2009 - 11:27"Paragraphing is quite possibly a browser issue and probably shouldn't be faulted."
When you lose your readers...ya it is a fault.
Edit is an option...it's like proofreading a paper before you turn it in. But that's neither here nor there...as paragraphing seems to the least of this fella's issues on this app thread...
This is more the site's fault
saedo — Mon, 04/20/2009 - 11:31This is more the site's fault and with apps, they're new, they might not know of edits. Look at a few of our other "new" site users. You'll find big blocks of text sometimes with them.
Though not as long, this such post /node/5876#comment-34582 could've probably used paragraphing
But meh, we kinda derailing this. lol
I think we can safely pass on
Shihli — Sun, 04/19/2009 - 23:50I think we can safely pass on this so far. Thus far what I have read is that you're not willing to take the time to spec properly, or think ahead of time and have flasks and food available for every raid (I buy my flasks and food at the END of the raid to be ready for the next raid).
You're also not willing to replace bogus enchants because they were free.
I am also curious as to why you claim your former guild master is a liar. Granted, they might be, but from the outside looking in, if you say "don't talk to my previous GM because they will lie about me" is like going to a job interview and saying you have references available, but not to talk to them because they will say bad things about you.
It just makes the employer curious as to why they would *want* to say bad things about you, and that rarely turns out well.
Lastly, your stance on mods is backwards and depressing.
Unless you get the approval of Garreth, I think we'll probably be passing.
not impressed
moriella — Sun, 04/19/2009 - 23:36Very little to say here. You dont maximize your character. Could not go to the AH and buy flasks and food with two hours notice to raid. Had a friend 'accidentally' put spellpower chant on your weapon, and you didnt think enough about it to replace it. Just shrugged it off. This shows me a general careless attitude and lack of desire to make your character 'the best'. As a tank, you have a huge responsibility on your shoulders. If you die, the raid probably wipes. A tank who doesnt put more effort in to his character, is not a tank I want to stand behind. If you didnt know better, it would be one thing - we could train you. Saying you knew what was right, but just didnt 'get around to changing your chants' is total fail IMHO
If you don't mind my mumbling
Ghli — Sat, 04/18/2009 - 18:27If you don't mind my mumbling about your app....
First of all, LoH is not the best "OH crap" button in the game; the best "oh crap" button is your shieldwall button, aka Divine Protection. It is usable up to at least twice in every encounter. LoH is a backup , and is usable only once every 20 minutes, 11 in your case with a glyph.
Second of all, what is your reasoning with using spell damage on your weapon? You do realize that 30% of your spell power will come from 3/3 Touched by the Light. With this talent there is absolutely no need to use spell power weapons, or even have weapons enchanted with spellpower. Put something like titanium weapon chain or accuracy for hit; or mongoose, +26agi, 65AP, 50AP, 20str or blade ward for a mix of avoidance and threat.
Third, you may have to wait 3 months to even join DF. The last 2 recruits that joined DF were ginvited 9 days ago and 6 days ago. They both left for BF yesterday, and the day before yesterday respectively. Mind you, we were in the middle of server crashing and raiders not being able to even join, or relog, into Uldar. I myself was not guild invited for more than 2 months due to an unfortunate name mixup.
Fourth, yes, dual specs have been released as of the 14th. NRP does count to off specs. However, if you have been invited into a raid to tank or heal, you are usually expected to tank or heal for the whole raid.
Fifth, have you tanked in raids with no addons? Please get grid, or even better, the entire Guid raid package which is available here : /files/AddOns.zip. Please update your UI.
Reply to mumbling
Hildur — Sat, 04/18/2009 - 19:16First, Noted
Second, I never picked up a tanking chant and so my friend was leveling Enchanting so he said put your weapon in 'do not be traded' I assumed he meant tanking so i put it in there and he put 50 SP on it to just level up, i told him to do it again on my healing wep and so it was a mix up i never bothered to fix.
Third, Well that's ok i guess I'm just glad for development in my application thank you for all your feed back and such
Fourth, Noted
Fifth, I'll try it out but no promises on me keeping the UI i dislike mods or UI's that make a job easier than it needs to be.
I'm another interested tank
Epatrick — Sat, 04/18/2009 - 21:16I'm another interested tank replying to this application. Why did you choose to spend no points in Judgements of the Just? In a tanking situation where you're under the big dude's hammer, you want that hammer hitting as softly and slowly as possible. I like that you obviously have been reading forum posts or have found a tankadin site, as this is a modified survival build for patch 3.1, but I'm really worried about the lack of JotJ. Course, that could just be you relying on a warrior or feral druid to keep attack speed debuffs on the mob...