your opinion of capitalism
Vitriola — Thu, 11/12/2009 - 07:16
Because of something I recently read, I was wondering what y'all thought of capitalism. Is it what can save or destroy the world?
Groups:
Vitriola — Thu, 11/12/2009 - 07:16
Because of something I recently read, I was wondering what y'all thought of capitalism. Is it what can save or destroy the world?

responding to "awww..." post
Kwondre — Fri, 11/13/2009 - 12:49"First, I said up front that I wanted to know the opinions of others. Please note the title of the thread."
So, its ok for me to start a thread titled "Vitriola is a f*king moron. I don't necessarily think this, but let's discuss"? Would that be OK, since as you said I just want to know the opinion of others, and its all in the title of the thread.
"You said, "Capitalism is not a moral theory". Many disagree but you gave no reason for saying that."
I'm going to use a very extreme analogy to explain this for the Nth time. Saying Capitalism is a moral theory is the same thing as saying Islam is the basis for terrorism. Can Capitalist principles be made into moral thoughts? YES. But that is not the purpose of Capitalism, nor why it was originally conceived. Islam can be perverted into a basis for killing people, but that is not its original purpose.
Then, the standard and inevitable outcome: personal attack. "for whatever reason you enjoy searching for your glasses when they're on your head." I have no idea why it must degenerate to this every time. /sigh
Yes I did lob an insult at you...see my post below to understand why.
As to his being a moral philosopher, I understand that Smith studied moral philosophy at the University of Glasgow and Oxford University. He collaborated with David Hume during the Scottish Enlightenment. Smith obtained a professorship at Glasgow teaching moral philosophy, and during this time wrote and published The Theory of Moral Sentiments. Do you dispute any of that?
So, by this logic, if I studied hamburger flipping techniques in college as an elective, that means everything I do in my life afterwards is a form of hamburger flipping?
Adam Smith is often referred to as the father of modern economics, not the father of economically based moral theory.
been there
Vitriola — Fri, 11/13/2009 - 12:54"So, its ok for me to start a thread titled "Vitriola is a f*king moron.
I don't necessarily think this, but let's discuss"? Would that be OK,
since as you said I just want to know the opinion of others, and its
all in the title of the thread."
If you omit the "I don't necessarily think this" part, that thread has made the rounds several times already. Gotta love the community part of downfall. Makes me feel all warm and fuzzy! :)
Grats on taking yet another
Shihli — Fri, 11/13/2009 - 15:10Grats on taking yet another underhanded pot-shot at the guild.
Underhanded? Another?
Vitriola — Fri, 11/13/2009 - 15:25Underhanded? Another?
OK I GIVE UP.... for the
Kwondre — Fri, 11/13/2009 - 13:02OK I GIVE UP....
for the record, I don't think you're a moron. But I think you have some kind of inability to connect certain dots, even though they seem fairly reasonable and obvious dots. I don't know how else to explain it, but that is my opinion. Sorry if that is insulting.
If this is truly a quest for knowledge, I suggest reading the following:
Plato's Republic Book 10: This discusses the theory of "Forms" and the differences between Ideas and the real life manifestation of these ideas and how they're not the same thing
Adam Smith's Wealth of Nations: for obvious reasons. Hopefully you will realize after reading this, that it is not a moral document
John Stuart Mill's Utilitarianism: for an example of a moral theory with economic implications, which is what you seem to be searching for.
I lose at the internets
understood
Vitriola — Fri, 11/13/2009 - 13:16Well, different people connect the dots differently and it is obvious to them even though not to others. That is the way of things. As to thinking that I am not a moron, yours is a minority view in these parts.
I have read Plato's republic. It is one of the works that I had to translate from the original while I was in college. Xenophon was another, fwiw. I did read Smith's book. It did not read as a book of morality to me though the concept of "capitalism" was not explicitly therein. It is, as one might expect, more primative than subsequent books as the ideas were embryonic. Still, it is a profound and wonderful work of much value today. I think that its ideas will be seen as perennial. I might have to brace myself for more reading of Mill. I never quite clicked with him for some reason.
And of course you lose at the internet. Desteran won and there can be only one. :)
if you've read the republic,
Kwondre — Fri, 11/13/2009 - 13:24if you've read the republic, specifically book 10, you should understand why I make the distinction between "C"apitalism and capitalism =)
plato
Vitriola — Fri, 11/13/2009 - 13:32I know that it is in book 10 that it says, "the same object appears straight when looked at out of the water, and crooked when in the water; and the concave becomes convex, owing to the illusion about colours to which the sight is liable. Thus every sort of confusion is revealed within us; and this is that weakness of the human mind on which the art of conjuring and of deceiving by light and shadow and other ingenious devices imposes, having an effect upon us like magic." I guess that they had trouble connecting the dots as well.
OBTW, what are the greek words for "C"apitalism and "c"apitalism? :)
Book 10 is primarily about
Kwondre — Fri, 11/13/2009 - 13:40Book 10 is primarily about the theory of Forms, and the example he uses is the carpenter who makes either a chair or a bed or some piece of furniture...i think its a bed...but basically, what he says is there are a crap ton of carpenters in the world who make a crap ton of "b"eds...but there is only one "B"ed, and that is the Form of the Bed - where the Form of the Bed is the perfect and uncorrupted ideal Bed.
So to transition that into this conversation, there are a crapton of people who make up theories about capitalism and what it is and isn't applied to, but there is only one Capitalism - and that's Adam Smith's Capitalism.
Pretty much, and, yes, a bed
Vitriola — Fri, 11/13/2009 - 13:53Pretty much, and, yes, a bed is used as an example. He says that god makes one bed and one bed only because, if he made more, even only a total of two, a third would appear that used the ideas from the first beds to deduce a third. and that, because god desired to be the real maker of a real bed, not a particular maker of a particular bed, and therefore he created a bed which is essentially and by nature the one and only.
If we apply this to the discussion at hand, are we saying that one of these forms is divinely created and the only true form? If so, which one? Also, what about your notion that "society is a compromise of Capitalism, Socialism, Aristocracy, Democracy, everything"? Are there many? If so, Plato has Socrates saying that more will come into being almost of their own accord. If not, then which is the god made one and only one?
Tough stuff! I think that I would rather sleep in that bed than debate it. ROFL
starting this new, i can't
Kwondre — Fri, 11/13/2009 - 12:34starting this new, i can't even read the posts anymore
I don't dispute that HUME is a moral philosopher...in fact he is my favorite moral philosopher. And his book on sentiment is one of my favorites. Why is this? Because I spent four years studying philosophy in college.
I'm not pissed off because you asked for other opinions. I'm pissed off because you are challenging other people's opinions (namely mine) with things that you googled (GOOGLED!!) for a second - things that I studied for four years of my life. Not things that you took the time to read carefully, or put some personal thought into, but things that you googled...GOOOGLED!
I don't know what you studied for four years of your life, but I majored in philosophy, particularly moral philosophy as well as epistemology. How would you like it if you studied Music Theory for four years of your life, and I came along and said I had a perfectly valid opinion on these matters based on my reading the Wikkipedia page on Mozart's technique?
I have offered you the basis of my thoughts. They are the source documents (primary materials). Wealth of Nations is not a moral document. Though some people have tried to adapt Adam's Smith's teachings into moral thinking. That doesn't mean that Adam Smith would believe those adaptations.
Why don't you at least try to read a cliff notes version of it before trying to tell me that he's a moral philosopher (or tell me that other people are saying he's a moral philosopher). The reason I'm not sourcing every single one of my thoughts is because I have the firsthand educational background to confidently say what is fact and what is not fact on the matter.
Maybe that's arrogant of me, maybe its not. But after 5+ years of paying off my school loans, if I can't even say that about a topic right in the wheelhouse of my major, wtf did I pay all that money to Columbia for?
wow!
Vitriola — Fri, 11/13/2009 - 12:49I started studying philosophy when I was in college in the mid 70s. You make a big deal of 4 years. If it is a big deal then I have more. If it is not, then why mention it? Personally, I think that it is the idea that it is the validity of the ideas that matters most.
Yes, I used a search engine. Ask.com, fwiw. This is not because I was doing it "cliff notes" fashion. It was because I did not know what you had access to. I wanted to make simple points to justify my asking questions. A philosophy student should not mind questions. I wanted to show that my questions were honest and based on notions that others held and, therefore, non beligerent. Quoting them was nothing more than me trying to make things easier for you.
You say, "The reason I'm not sourcing every single one of my thoughts is because
I have the firsthand educational background to confidently say what is
fact and what is not fact on the matter." And yet, you made significant points on "C"apitalism that you later admitted were your own notions. That is fine but personal opinion is not quite the same and it behooves the one with the unique opinion to justify it or expect others to give it a pass. If you alone think something, how will anyone else give it credence if you do not explain it?
Also, you did not say which of the bits I mentioned about Adam Smith were under dispute. If they are uncontested, then so is my assertion.
Lets try to relax. This is a quest for knowledge and not a brawl. If you do not want anyone to ask why you think what you tell them you do, just say so. If you had just said "this one sucks and that one blows but is better than the other, period" we could have left it at that. As Garreth said, it was a good read. Can we keep it that way?
capitalism as a diety and a moral position
Dragon — Fri, 11/13/2009 - 12:22Was mainly started back in the 1950s as part of the cold war as another way to differentiate us from the Evil Red U.S.S.R. that was trying to take over the world.
In a way it is a bi-product of the Monroe Doctrine as well as containment.
Now I'm gonna read the rest of the article and I'll get back with more if I think anything more needs to be said.
Economics, Adam Smith, Capitalism
Dragon — Fri, 11/13/2009 - 12:51Sort of repeating what Kwon said but as Adam Smith believed, Capitalism should be Laissez-faire. Translated this means that economic markets should be completely absent of government intervention at all as the market will always fix itself.
After it was published it remained to hold true for a longest time. When talking about economics and especially laissez-faire economics it is generally referred to as the classical economic model.
There are some inherint flaws with this form of economic model however and they are as follows.
1. Everyone acts rationally with for the purpose of buying and selling goods. Everyone will always try to always try to sell at the highest price possible for them as the producer and the consumer will in turn try to buy at the lowest price possible to them. And thus the two will come to equilibrium where the producer is maximizing his profits on a given item.
While sounding great the problem with it is the fact that it assumes that everyone in the market operates with equal knowledge all the time which our markets just down afford. It means that Kwon, Garreth, You and I can all go into a store to buy and item and know everything about the product just as the guy selling it to us. Then after that we all decide how valuable this is for us.
While it sounds great in practice it doesn't work this way as information tends to be more asymetrical than symetrical.
2. The market will always fix it's own problems and thus should be left alone by the government so that profits can be maximized. The best example on why this doesn't work obviously is the Great Depression. Given enough time yes the market will fix itself howeverit fixes itself over a long term curve. John Maynard Keynes (here out referred to as the Keynsian model of Economics) however said "The long run is a misleading guide to current affairs. In the long run we are all dead."
While harsh, Keynes is unfortunately often right in this instance. As markets prefer to change slowly over time as it tends to keep the price of inflation down which means that the value of your real money tends to go up relatively equally to your profits.
While that is all well and good, unfortunately if you believe as Keynes does that in the long run we are all dead, then Classical is a 'flawed' economic model. What's more, human beings have emotions, feelings, 'free will' and other things which through kogs into the work. This is why Kwon talked about Capitalism would be great if we were all robots. These very emotions that we have cause problems in the market as it causes our behaviors to act abnormal compared to the markets themselves. Add to that, we all want to look out for ourselves and our families.
Again we will go back to the Great Depression (GD) where we had people loosing jobs, homes, life savings left right and center. Thus the government instituted policies to try to help the market recover faster. Things many of us still talk about today when we talk about all the extra 'fat' in our beauracracy stems from this area. But to go along with this we have things like Social Security which taking away would now cause a riot on Washington.
The other problem is just government in general which of course seeks to govern. However people tend to only stay with governments when in general they think that the government is somehow making their life better as a whole for its population. They do this if for no other reason than for self-preservation, in this case preservation of their job.
Thus as time goes on as a majority of people want something done by the government that cannot be done by the people themselves they turn to the government. The government stepping in, not only in the economy but in any other place is mere a method of socialism.
TL;DR Summary: The government will institute socialistic options that a majority of the population have a weight behind (usually for an extended amount of time) in an effort of self preservation. And what's more capitalism will not save us because of human nature and emotions that will prevent it.
I thought this was going to
garreth — Thu, 11/12/2009 - 14:46I thought this was going to be troll-bait when I read the subject, but I'm really enjoying the read so far. Good post, Vit.
I'm bored so I'll bite at
Kwondre — Thu, 11/12/2009 - 08:30I'm bored so I'll bite at this overly vague and generalized powder keg.
In "The Republic", Plato writes that the best forms of government are aristocracies and monarchies...but are also the most impractical, so we're just going to have to live with democracy.
What I'm getting at with that paraphrase is that there's a difference between Capitalism with a capital C, and capitalism - as it is practiced in the world today. If we were robots incapable of emotion, than Capitalism could work because its fair and based on merit. But we are not robots, and are affected (and sometimes misguided) by greed, love, lust, hate, and even...sympathy - all emotions that have no place in "C"apitalism. In "C"apitalism, if $ from A > $ from B, then A wins, period. The "W"orld doesn't work like that, nor does the US.
The US, as it stands today is not a Capitalist society. Frankly, the only form of pure capitalism remaining is probably the securities exchange markets. (and yes bailout money was given to companies but NOTstocks or shareholders - there's a big difference). But, today, during the Bush admin, the Clinton admin, etc etc back to George Washington, we've always had some forms of socialism.
Frankly, if we were to get close to a capitalist society, we would abolish all government because we wouldn't need it. Everything would have a "market", whether it be healthcare, education, roads, etc etc. So whenever people say "that's socialism", what they're really saying is...that's the government thinking they can do something better than a private company...sometimes they're right, sometimes they're not.
This country was not built on Capitalism...Read the declaration:
Hopefully, I've drilled in my point that the US is not a Capitalist society, and never really has been (so people should just stfu about us becoming a socialist state). Now, back to the original question: Can Capitalism "Save the World"?
Does the "World" really need saving? Is it in dire trouble? How do we measure this?
The World is a very big place. To put it into perspective...one of the World milestone moments of our generation was September 11, 2001 where 3,000 people died in direct relation to that event. The next day, 216,000 people were born (though mostly in Asia and Africa). The world isn't a place that changes on a dime - save maybe for an all-out Nuclear holocaust (if you want to be fearful of that, be my guest).
And this is totally my opinion, but I don't think the World necessarily needs more or less Capitalism. I think it needs people who are innovators and educators and some common effing sense.
There is no system or ideal that can solve everyone's problems to satisfaction. Whether on a small scale, like creating the perfect neighborhood, or a large scale, like creating a perfect World.
(I wrote this in five minutes)...i'll probably end up editing some of it.
Good read, kwon!
Vitriola — Thu, 11/12/2009 - 09:07I deliberately asked vaguely so as to listen to what others think and NOT have this as a forum for my notions. thank you for responding, Kwon!
I have not heard of a profound and foundational difference between Capitalism and capitalism. Where can I read up on this distinction? Why does one only work for robots and not for humans? Do you mean the same thing when you say "The "W"orld doesn't work like that, nor does the US."? Do you mean that World and world are profoundly different terms also? I ask only for clarification.
I was wondering more in the standard sense of the term: leaving people to figure out their own lives for themselves vs. having a government tell them what they can and cannot do and how they can and cannot do it. In other words, based on the articles I read where polls were taken worldwide, are we better off living our lives on our own terms or are we better off with the government regulating it all?
I like that you arearticulate about it all but I how do you conclude that monarchies are the most impractical? Why do we "have to live with democracy" when the U.S. is a republic?
The definition of Capitalism
Kwondre — Thu, 11/12/2009 - 09:42The definition of Capitalism is pretty simple: Means of production are controlled by private entities, and profits are distibuted among owners of such production.
The defining factor of a Capitalist system is whether or not P (price) = intersection of S(supply) and D(demand).
However, capitalism as it is practiced in the United States (and everywhere else in the world) is not Capitalism because of a variety of factors - not limited to taxation, price supports, etc, etc.
Antitrust laws are inherently anti-Capitalism because monopolies are what every Capitalist strives for. Antitrust laws are in place to "protect the consumer". Capitalism doesn't give a F about "protecting" the consumer.
Farm subsidies, First-time homeowner tax credits, and "Cash for Clunkers"-like programs (notice how I'm avoiding mentioning bailouts?) are all things that distort the supply and/or demand curves of goods and services.
Capitalism does not work for humans because of the emotions I mentioned, emotions that (non Steven Spielberg A.I.) robots do not feel.
P = S (n) D - where n = intersection. This equation (like all mathematical equations) has no place for "feelings" of justice, morality, or society.
Your question of whether we are better off governing our own lives or are we better off listening to the governors is hard to answer. I think you're better off taking life one decision at a time and not trying to fit to a framework. Sometimes those decisions maybe governed by your Capitalistic virtues...sometimes not.
Capitalism has the same answer for both of those situations. If V(value) of "Yes" minus C(cost) of "Yes" > V of "No" minus C of "No, then "Yes". If not, then "No".
But just because Capitalism has an answer for all questions, doesn't mean you will evaluate every question based on Capitalist ideals. You can't. It's inhuman and inhumane.
Clarifications to your questions:
I say "W"orld because people like to take things and blow them out of proportion. The World is a very very big place, and sometimes when people say "world", they are really only referring to their own life.
I didn't say Monarchies are impractical...Plato did. And he said monarchies are only practical when the masses are placated by some semblance of "divine right" or "moral right" - meaning monarchies or aristocracies run by what he calls "Philosopher Kings" could work because the "Kings" would be the wisest, fairest, and most just...and the people would actually believe that. That scenario, for obvious reasons, is not possible in today's society (for better or for worse). So we are stuck with democracy (or republic - semantic differences) because that is the midpoint between The LEAST desriable outcome (Anarchy - rule of no one) and the MOST desriable outcome (Monarchy - rule of ONE).
"C/c"apitalism
Vitriola — Thu, 11/12/2009 - 10:05Is the distinction of Capitalism vs. capitalism your own or can I read about it somewhere?
Also, I thought that antitrust laws were to protect companies against things like monopolies rather than a direct protection of the consumer. http://topics.law.cornell.edu/wex/Antitrust I know that it could be said that there is indirect protection but that does not seem the thrust of your point. Also, protecting the consumer seems to be parsimonious to capitalism as it keeps them coming back. Making the customer happy is good for business and, therefore, good for capitalism. With regulation I would think that doing something in line with "policy" would take precedence over the likes and dislikes of the individual and that consumer protection is less likely that way.
FWIW, a particular monarchy may be good or bad but they are more efficient than republics. That may itself be good or bad, but things go faster when just one person says yes or no. It might be faster to the fail or faster to the win but faster it is. :)
Nope, me overly (and perhaps
Kwondre — Thu, 11/12/2009 - 10:29Nope, me overly (and perhaps annoyingly) emphasizing the "C" in capitalism is just my snobby way of saying that there's a differenece between the textbook definition of Capitalism (which you can read about in Adam Smith's Wealth of Nations - among many many other books) and what people think they mean when they say capitalism - as in the sentence "America is a capitalist society".
Anti-trust laws maybe written and enforced in a way that seems like they are protecting companies, but the "spirit" of the law is the protect the consumer by allowing and nurturing competition. Yes, not being allowed into a market hurts a company, but the government's stance is that it hurts consumers even more.
Capitalism and formal regulation cannot co-exist. The very definition of Capitalism means that the markets regulate themselves through fluctuations in Supply and Demand via "The Invisible Hand" of the market. Another example of how the US is not Capitalism.
I didn't really speak to the efficiency benefits of government forms...but when Plato says monarchies or aristocracies are better, he says so because the people in charge of monarchies or aristocracies are supposed to be "better" than the average joe - morally and intellectually.
Gotcha! I am not sure that
Vitriola — Thu, 11/12/2009 - 12:05Gotcha!
I am not sure that capitalism and formal regulation cannot co-exist. I suspect that there is some level which constitutes a critical mass that causes a changeover between capitalism and socialism. Lightweight regulations should be tolerable to capitalism. Also, even in the soviet union's strictist rule, there was always a black market where capitalism was to be found. China and Russia seem to have benefitted from the changeover. We are experiencing the opposite side of the coin but there are those that say that our change from capitalism is a good thing. There are those that would disagree with any position so just finding detractors from either side is not saying much.
It sounds like you are saying that capitalism is better in theory but socialism is better in practice. Is that the gist?
I think you're missing what
Kwondre — Thu, 11/12/2009 - 12:21I think you're missing what may be a simple but subtle point:
there can be no such thing as "C"apitalism with regulation. When you introduce regulation, it becomes watered-down lowercase pseudo-capitalism.
Regulation is a practical manifestation of socialism no matter how lightweight.
In a "C"apitalist society, there is no such thing as a black market, because there is no need for one when all that matters in life is the "P"rice.
Every political system or financial system or moral ideal is GREAT in theory...every single one of them. It's just that none of them make the translation from THEORY ~~>PRACTICE, because we're human beings and have emotions and impulses that are both enlightening and empowering, as well as destructive and counterproductive.
That's why society is a compromise of Capitalism, Socialism, Aristocracy, Democracy, everything. Elections? Politics? Political Parties? Revolutions? All these things do is determine whether we inch just a little bit closer to one ideal vs the other, but never do we venture all the way.
It seems you have defined
Vitriola — Thu, 11/12/2009 - 13:14It seems you have defined capitalism out of existence. If it cannot exist in the presence of *any* regulation, then even the idea of money, which requires regulation even in its most primitive form, would turn it into socialism. Also, you say that "society is a compromise of Capitalism, Socialism, Aristocracy, Democracy, everything." If this is true, then these things must be able to co-exist as a matter of degrees as per my ealier post.
Yes, people are imperfect. Yes, people make mistakes. Yes, people change their minds. However, the ideas of capitalism and socialism must be able to exist or what are we talking about? We will never get things in absolute purity, so some slack is called for both in definitions and practice, I suspect.
You say these things with fervor but you never say which you think to be the better way. Things function in degrees. That is why real life is analog and not digital though it does contain things that are digital. :)
I propose a new
Desteran — Thu, 11/12/2009 - 13:53I propose a new spectrum:
Capitalism
Sapitalism
Sopitalism
Socitalism
Sociatalsim
Socialism
Cocialism
Commialism
Commualism
Communlism
Communism
I win the internets.
I think I just won the internet.
:)
Vitriola — Fri, 11/13/2009 - 08:30Is this you biting off a dick? heh
Did I mention I win the
Desteran — Thu, 11/12/2009 - 13:54Did I mention I win the internet?
To your first paragraph
Kwondre — Thu, 11/12/2009 - 13:40To your first paragraph specifically, the reason I say people who clamor for Capitalism and denounce Socialism are so EFFING stupid, is because they are aware that our systems need some form of regulation. Despite this, they yell and scream that everytime there's a hint of "more" regulation, they cry "SOCIALISM!!"...when in reality, who cares. Once you have a little regulation, its stops being Capitalism.
Also I should clarify. Capitalism is one of those things that is kind of black and white because of the existence of the Invisible Hand. Socialism is not, and can have lots of shades of gray...just like Democracy, Aristocracy, etc, etc (insert political/moral/economic ideal here).
But Capitalism has a VERY strict definition. Any regulation = not Capitalism anymore.
<3 the paradox
Vitriola — Fri, 11/13/2009 - 08:06"Capitalism is one of those things that is kind of black and white"
Absolutely black and white... kind of. ROFL
well...it is...and its not
Kwondre — Fri, 11/13/2009 - 08:12well...it is...and its not really a paradox.
Capitalism is not a moral theory...where there's right and wrong and millions of shades in between...it either is or it isn't.
google
Vitriola — Fri, 11/13/2009 - 08:29a quick search on "capitalism moral" shows a LOT of people that think that it *is* a moral position. I will quote just the first one on the list that the search returned:
"Capitalism is the only moral social system because it is the only system that respects the freedom of the producers to think and the right of the individual to set his own goals and pursue his own happiness."
http://www.capitalismcenter.org/Philosophy/Essays/The_Moral_Basis_of_Capitalism.htm