Cataclysm Rogue Preview
saedo — Thu, 04/22/2010 - 16:59
So my turn at making a post on Rogues.
In World of Warcraft: Cataclysm, we'll be making
several changes to class talents and abilities across the board. Here,
you'll get a glimpse at what's in store for the rogue class, including a
look the new high-level abilities and an overview of how the new
Mastery system will work with the rogue's different talent specs.
New Rogue Abilities
Redirect (available at level 81)
: Rogues will be getting a
new ability to help them deal with changing targets. Redirect will
transfer any active combo points to the rogue's current target, helping
to ensure combo points aren't wasted when swapping targets or when
targets die. In addition, self-buff abilities like Slice and Dice will
no longer require a target, so rogues can spend extra combo points on
those types of abilities (more on this below). Redirect will have a
1-minute cooldown and no other costs.
This is all right I guess. It does address a bit on our losing our "rage/runes/mana" (sorta) when changing target to target. With a 1 minute CD, it's a little bit of extra burst, little less ramp up time for adds. But it's not that huge, a slightly better quality of life thing.
Combat Readiness (level 83)
: Combat Readiness is a new
ability that we intend rogues to trigger defensively. While this ability
is active, whenever the rogue is struck by a melee or ranged attack, he
or she will gain a stacking buff called Combat Insight that results in a
10% reduction in damage taken. Combat Insight will stack up to 5 times
and the timer will be refreshed whenever a new stack is applied. Our
goal is to make rogues better equipped to go toe-to-toe with other melee
classes when Evasion or stuns are not in play. This ability lasts 6
seconds and has a 2-minute cooldown.
This would mostly be a pvp move. It can seem a bit OP at most, but when players adapt to seeing this they can work around it. All it takes is for you to stop attacking the rogue for 6 seconds, and the stacks will fall off. So like most things, bad players will be screwed, good players that are attentive and have the tools will negate this. For PvE, maybe during fights with constant raid damage or so it'd help the healers out a bit. But rogues are dps heroes, we don't care, dps dps dps til we kill ourselves right?
Smoke Bomb (level 85)
: The rogue drops a Smoke Bomb, creating
a cloud that interferes with enemy targeting. Enemies who are outside
the cloud will find themselves unable to target units inside the cloud
with single-target abilities. Enemies can move inside the cloud to
attack, or they can use area-of-effect (AoE) abilities at any time to
attack opponents in a cloud. In PvP, this will open up new dimensions of
tactical positional gameplay, as the ability offers a variety of
offensive and defensive uses. In PvE, Smoke Cloud can serve to shield
your group from hostile ranged attacks, while also drawing enemies
closer without the need to rely on conventional line-of-sight
obstructions. Smoke Cloud lasts 10 seconds and has a 3-minute cooldown.
This potentially has some major implications. But when it comes right down to it, if rogues find a way to use it to negate any major boss mechanics, Blizz will simply fix it to not work on it anymore. But in the meantime, maybe use it to LoS trash for the tanks. Maybe use it to save the healers/ranged from being targetting by some ability. Maybe. PvP will probably be more fun, create your own LoS pilller kind of thing.
Changes to Abilities and Mechanics
We're also planning to make changes to some of the other abilities
and mechanics you're already familiar with. This list and the summary of
talent changes below it are by no means comprehensive, but they should
give you a good sense of what we want for each spec.
New Talents and Talent Changes
In Cataclysm, the overall feel of each of the rogue's talent trees
will change, as we would like each tree to have a clearly defined niche
and purpose. The talent details below are meant to give you an idea of
what we're going for.
Mastery Passive Talent Tree Bonuses
Assassination
Melee damage
Melee critical damage
Poison damage
Nothing really unexpected here. Mutilates are the poison high crit rogue, so, go them.
Combat
Melee damage
Melee Haste
Harder-hitting combo-point generators
Haste, in all likelihood, this does refer to the new haste, which means we get energy regen out of it. So, if that's the cast, this likely replaces Vitality and Lightning Reflexes out of our tree. Guess the 3rd mastery just boosts how hard Sinister Strike hits, so more yellow damage a go.
Subtlety
Melee damage
Armor Penetration
Harder-hitting finishers
Armor penetration for this tree is weird. In fact, this mastery was originally the Combat's, and Combat's here. Well it was called More Energy Regen or something like that. But the way these 3 are lined up, my theory is that the masteries are making Assassion uses Envenom (duh), Combat uses Rupture, while Subtlety uses Evis. The ArP would certainly be a Evis booster.
The initial tier of rogue Mastery bonuses will be very similar
between the trees. However, the deeper that a player goes into any tree,
the more specialized and beneficial the Masteries will be to the play
style for that spec. Assassination will have better poisons than the
other two specs. Combat will have very steady and consistent overall
damage. Subtlety will have strong finishers.
We hope you enjoyed this preview, and we're looking forward to
hearing your initial thoughts and feedback on these additions and
changes. Please keep in mind that this information represents a work in
progress and is subject to change as development on Cataclysm continues.
Well this concludes my analysis. All in all, there's nothing ground breakingly major for the rogues. We get a few utility tricks. A few conveniences for target switching. And that's about it.
Have to wait fo the Talent Tree previews to make a real judgement call for the rogues. That's where the meat and potatoes are! See ya then! Or if you wanna discuss something below, go ahead.


Well 31 point talent trees
saedo — Wed, 07/14/2010 - 10:06Well 31 point talent trees are going out though, it's not finalized yet (assassination apparently will be more worked on)
Assassination
Combat
Melee attack speed increased by 20%., Talent, )
And it appears these are the freebie talents if you spec into that tree as the primary spec:
Combat
Assassination
Subtlety
Trees can be found here: http://cata.wowhead.com/talent#f
Looks like no more Hunger for
Katzeus — Tue, 05/25/2010 - 13:10Looks like no more Hunger for Blood...bah, that ability has really been through the wringer
HfB now replaced
saedo — Thu, 05/27/2010 - 17:03HfB now replaced with:
Vendetta
30 yd range
Instant
Marks an enemy for death, increasing all damage you deal to the target
by 20% [NYI - special abilities only for now] and granting you unerring
vision of your target, regardless of concealments such as stealth and
invisibility. Lasts 30 sec.
2 min cooldown
So, you get a CD to use. It averages out to 5% passive damage still, but, you can now decide to use it at certain times to get a better burst as a CD.
Granted, I'm not a big PvPer,
Dufe — Thu, 05/27/2010 - 17:29Granted, I'm not a big PvPer, but 30 sec seems like an eternity to kill stealth/invis in PvP.
Well HfB was orignally
saedo — Thu, 05/27/2010 - 17:56Well HfB was orignally designed to be unattractive to pvp'ers, maybe they'll still mess with the trees to make this unreachable for them somehow.
After further thought,
Dufe — Fri, 05/28/2010 - 19:11After further thought, Hunter's Mark lasts how long? Maybe this really isn't so bad.
Also consider that Hunter's
Derchlon — Sat, 05/29/2010 - 01:08Also consider that Hunter's mark can be negated with a simple vanish.
Skilled use of Flare is what really makes hunters effective against rogues.
Yes, but that doesn't help
Dufe — Sat, 05/29/2010 - 01:38Yes, but that doesn't help prowl, shadowmeld, or invis.
It lasts 5 min. 100 yard
saedo — Fri, 05/28/2010 - 22:40It lasts 5 min. 100 yard range.
It was expected. They
saedo — Tue, 05/25/2010 - 16:01It was expected. They mentioned long ago they didn't like it but it was the only thing they could do then to boost mutilate without making pvp'ers like the ability.
New Alpha Build more rogue
saedo — Fri, 05/21/2010 - 21:41New Alpha Build more rogue talent tweaks:
v12065
Assassination
* Remorseless Attacks now affects all of your abilities. Huh, so maybe, more attactive to put fillers down here to bump up trash/add dps
* Vile Poisons now also gives your Fan of Knives ability a chance to apply the poisons on your melee weapons equal to 33/66/100% of the chance that they would normally apply from your melee weapons. It no longer gives your poisons additional resistance to dispel effects. This could be a boost needed to compensate that you can't dual poison FoK anymore
* Cold Blood now also generates 25 energy and has a 2 min cooldown, down from 3 min.
* Turn the Tables now also affects opening moves.
* Murderous Intent moved up one row.
Subtlety
* Ghostly Strike removed.
* Initiative moved up one row.
* Honor Among Thieves now only affects physical critical strike chance, only activates on a physical ability critical hit in the raid, and can only grant a combo point every 4 sec, down from 2. Looking more and more like Leader of the Pack
http://war-tools.com/t68650.html been updated too to reflect these.
Well playing around with the
saedo — Fri, 05/21/2010 - 21:48Well playing around with the trees I got this: http://war-tools.com/t68650.html?b=90253203053521c5001030311531052152002...
It looks like Remoreless Attacks is more of a viable filler in the sense that with Punturing Wounds moving up a tier, needed 2 more points to fill somewhere before reaching the 3rd tier. Guess that wins, over Imp Evis. Since already 2 points in, got Deadly Momentum as the next set of filler. Dang, no getting Deadly Brew or Imp Expose Armor now, well unless you give up Deadly Momementum and or Fleet Footed. Your choice!
There's been some revamps in
saedo — Thu, 05/20/2010 - 11:25There's been some revamps in the rogue trees on Alpha, here's the summary and some talent tree, though it's not complete: http://war-tools.com/t68650.html
Assassination Tree :
Combat Tree : Remains unchanged.
Subtlety Tree :
Probably more changes in coming. Overall looks like they want all rogues to use rupture with those new talents in Assass and (moved) talents in Sub.
Assass looks like it potentially has 5-6 filler points for utility as you go down that tree. Though too bad the guy didn't fill out the combat tree to see how it all interacts.
Ok with the update to that
saedo — Thu, 05/20/2010 - 16:44Ok with the update to that guy's talent trees, combat is filled in and I can play around with builds more: http://war-tools.com/t68650.html
Combat:
http://war-tools.com/t68650.html?b=93052e534r55c52052131022310050120531zg
http://war-tools.com/t68650.html?b=92053e1t55c52052131022310050120531530...
http://war-tools.com/t68650.html?b=9zd55c5205213102231005012053153221320...
Mutilate:
http://war-tools.com/t68650.html?b=9c53003053521005321033100531052152002...
http://war-tools.com/t68650.html?b=9c53003053521005321033103531050050050...
Subtlety:
I dunno, I'm just guessing with one of these 2. Both go down picking up all the Sub dps goodies. The first one spends the rest in Assassinaion (except for Dual Wield). The 2nd spends the rest all in Combat, but only really gaining 5% hit, and 1 point in LR so 4% haste. Versus, 5% crit, 20% more evis dmg, 2/3 ruth, 1/5 leth.
Sub atm definitely has the most top loaded dps talents, maybe. There's 20 points to pump into the last 3 tiers, vs Assass's 13 (though 6 more potential dps points if they prove to not suck), and Combat's 12 (only 12, rest are utility). Perhaps testing will prove some of the top talents in there will suck and can be dumped for more Combat / Assass lower end talents.
Nice update. I'm trying to
Katzeus — Thu, 05/20/2010 - 11:59Nice update.
I'm trying to figure out the viability of sub with these changes. The tree has been kicked to the curb this whole x-pac, now it looks like they're trying to make it PvE strong, but it's dirtied with all these random PvPish talents. They either have a big picture plan with subtlety or they're just throwing stuff at it till something starts working, I'm thinking it's the later.
Ideally I'd like to see things go in a direction of more situational raid builds, like a trash spec, a boss with adds spec, single target, etc, etc. They're obviously working to give rogues more options, which has been a long time coming.
Here's hoping we see a shadowstep raid build...
The way things are, it seems
saedo — Thu, 05/20/2010 - 12:30The way things are, it seems the sub rogue will be pushed more like Feral. They both now have Mangle, and I assume the 5% crit from Honor Among Thieves is a Leader of the Pack alternative, and Sub has the most bleed (rupture) based talents, and the mastery will be Armor Pen, another Feral beloved stat.
Cata Talents
saedo — Thu, 05/06/2010 - 02:12So MMO has some alpha leaks and here's some potentially more interesting talks with the rogue class. Their talent calc is here: http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?rogue#,,11927
Combat:
Well starting with this cause I'm more focused in this atm. The build if one were to copy today's build with a few more points to throw around would be this: http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?rogue#ebAL5gofAqzBzyD,,11927
For the most part, there's less change than I thought there'd be. Well
this is Alpha version so probably will change more. But still, was
expecting more (or less). By less I mean less talents as they'd be
moved to masteries, such as Lightning Reflexes and Combat Potentcy.
But, some of the talents are streamlined in that they take less to max out. So I do wound up with 7 filler points instead of the current.... 1.
An interesting new talent in the tree would be Restless Blades. Reduces a CDs of BF and KS by 1.5 sec (when maxed) per combo point each time you use a finisher. Yo ho ho, more CDs for Combats to pop per fight. Though this potentially means I might not be able to plan ahead to time BF with Heroism, but more BF would be drool worthy (and KS).
Assassination
I see no real changes worth mentioning in the tree itself. What's gonna be changing looks like how to spend points in the other trees.
I'm seeing the possbility of 2 specs, no idea yet which is better but...
Or something similar.
But the main point is this...
Spec 1 allows you to get Blade Flurry. Woot woot a good CD mutilate can reach?
Spec 2 basically goes down to max out Opportunity / Relentless Strikes. Which are big dps talents that Mutilate has sacrificed more recently for even bigger dps talents. And even then, that spec is fairly close to the current LR spec, maybe just a bit behind.
My feeling right now, Blade Flurry will win. Extra CD for utility is probably better and the diff probably isn't huge to Spec 2 since there's still points leftover to put some into Opp/RS. So, a real CD for Mutilates to use, Combats just get to use it more often (among others).
Subtlety
No fuckin clue! Ha ha! Well a brief skim of it doesn't show much diff in there. Maybe I missed something since it's late in the night. But I haven't kept touch with how to play this spec anyways.
That's all for this edition. All speculation of course are probably wrong since there'll be (hopefully) more changes incoming.
Mutilate blade flurry is so
Katzeus — Fri, 05/07/2010 - 01:45Mutilate blade flurry is so drool worthy. It's too bad you have to pick up so much fluff to get to it. Recuperate, parry, even slice and dice are just empty talent points.
Technically, most of those
saedo — Fri, 05/07/2010 - 02:27Technically, most of those fluff was picked up to get Lightning Reflexes. Only needed to fill up SnD to have enough points for BF.
But guess that's the point, Blizz said they want us to have more flexibility in utility talents, more filler points to play around with. Looks like it's all in the Combat tree atm though. Going down Assassination, nothing changed really. But... This is only the first alpha build...
You're right, as things stand
Katzeus — Fri, 05/07/2010 - 13:01You're right, as things stand now chances are we'll be climbing up the combat tree for lightning reflexes either way. I guess the flexibility will be nice. For so long every rogue has had the exact same builds. It'll probably still be close to that way, but we'll have more filler to choose from.
Unfortunately cool skillz don't equal top dps or I'd have been rolling blade flurry/shadowstep all this x-pac. Having blade flurry will change the mechanics of mutilate quite a bit considering how crits generate combo points, it'll be like a CP adrenaline rush. Maybe I can do something on trash other then spam FoK.
Since they haven't really touched Mut or Sub I guess it's anyone's guess till we see how it develops.
Though my favorite build in the Alpha thus far is still rogue tanking...
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?rogue#fmghjXl0fditfO9,9eJ-Oq,11927
I was one of those rogues who tanked heroics before they nerfed dodge from agi. With enough avoidance and flawless cooldown management this could actually be viable.
Mmmm, I remember rogue
saedo — Fri, 05/07/2010 - 13:18Mmmm, I remember rogue tanking in BC, my blog on it: /node/2381
They never did let me try Mother Shahraz or Illidan...
And technically I never did successfully tank anything from start to finish, stuff happened, lost some external avoidance, but...
I tanked our first twin emp
Agoney — Fri, 05/07/2010 - 23:52I tanked our first twin emp kill for the last 5-6% in Vanilla.. it was pretty epic i must say /epeen
LOL that reminds me of the
Katzeus — Sat, 05/08/2010 - 10:36LOL that reminds me of the first time I tanked. It was actually the first BC raid I ever did. The entire raid wiped on Moroes and I popped all my cooldowns and evasion tanked him down from 5%. The raid was so grateful that they gave me the pocketwatch (which the tank regretted for the next few months when it didn't drop again). That was the first epic I ever got as well.
Oh hot, my moment of glory
Katzeus — Fri, 05/07/2010 - 15:51Oh hot, my moment of glory was tanking Gruul for probably as long as you did. I, like you, never actually got to tank any raid bosses to completion, but damn was building that set fun. My friend has a video of Gruul, I should try to dig it up.
I really like the idea of the
Zevix — Tue, 04/27/2010 - 00:44I really like the idea of the smoke bomb ability, has some nice options to it as far as groups go and gives us something else we can do other then just ToT. I also like the keeping of combo points when switching from target to target with min cool down....not like huge or game breaking....but still kind of nice.
They seem to be going a lot to keeping us alive, do we die a lot now o.0? Well I mean of corse i do ^ ^ but what about others rogues. I guess these changes are mainly for PvP but meh...w/e still not a bad thing.
As far the spec changes I'm guessing that Mutilate and combat are still going to be the main raiding specs. The changes they are making to sub seem nice but will it make this spec raidable?
All in all I think most of the changes are pretty nice nothing ground breaking but some interesting new tools for PvE and PvP I'm really looking forward to Cat the more and more I hear about it :P. Will see how much really makes it in to the expasion and what gets nerfed.
Thanks for the awesome preview post nicely done sir!
Smoke bomb --> Just like
Derchlon — Tue, 04/27/2010 - 12:53Smoke bomb --> Just like Camouflage, only at a fixed location and can't be canceled by damage.
hmm.
And it's 10 sec duration vs
saedo — Tue, 04/27/2010 - 15:50And it's 10 sec duration vs "until broken"
You have a point, that would
Derchlon — Fri, 05/07/2010 - 10:19You have a point, that would make them appear balanced.
Of course, this is all just speculation. We can't know the true mechanics of it, until it's leaked.