Pumping Brutallus!
Cisper — Tue, 07/22/2008 - 00:23
I know you guys have had some REALLY clutch Brutallus attempts, so from what I've read, seen and heard, hope any of this can help with pushing it over the edge.
Taken from: http://wowwebstats.com/n11dghenaizn5?s=5014-5259 (5.3 Million Attempt, 13%~).
DPS Wise, a lot of consumables need to be used (You can see from the Restore Mana, different classes opting for Mana Potions vs. Spell Damage Potion, which in the long run can help obviously for longlasting DPS).
Heals on tanks should only be hots from Druids, no Renews. Need to use the Greater Heal/Holy Light like mad. I know conventially you can have 3 Priests/Paladins non-stop spamming Max Rank GH/HL on the tank (Swapping as needed), and give them a Spriest. Along with hots, should be enough, pending on gear + Survivability, may need a 4th. Should leave 4 healers, 1 for each side for the meteor, 2 for burns.
This'll require spamming Mana Pots (on Cooldown), but spamming those heals 95% of the time keeps the tanks up, obviously sometimes they dip (eating a stun usually), setting up a Nature Swiftness Rotation from the Druids/Shamans can help fill in the gap.
For grouping stack, using a Retadin like Hbk can definetly help with the blessings and the bonus damage for the melee, as is the obvious Windfury. An elemental Shaman does wonders for a Warlock/Mage group, but obviously in short supply on Gorgonnash. Having the fuzzy bearz Mnor & Nuit can mean the extra 5% crit for the melee, aswell the heals. Might be worth having Mnor+Orky tank so that you can have a feral with melee - make the Two tanks are in a Holy Paladin + Resto Druid group for the mitigation, Imp shouldn't be necessary, nor Shaman (Stam bonus/Agi).
Make sure you have Resto Shamans + Casters & Healers, between Nhia & Jorence (no more Cali :*(), you can have Two Solid Healer Groups (Tank Group, Tank+Tank+RestoDruid+Paladin+?) and then the other 6 healers ( 2 shamans ) make two 3 member groups, which you can fit in a Spriest each, and a mage each. This shafts Warlocks, hoping to get them in with a BM Hunter, preferabbly a Shaman, but you can only make do.
At a 9% attempt, its clear that synchronisation is solid with heals, knowing where to and the rotation between tanks. It's now a matter of burning cash and making sure everything is clicked well (Like Shihli's ZA Run) everyone is directly benefitted somehow. Burn the cash on those Pots, fully oiled, fed and flasked and pop Heroism, Spell Damage & Mana Potions continuously and win! T6 Belts and a massive relief over a shit and spontaneous boss.
All the best!
~ Jas
"Raiding with Garreth,
garreth — Thu, 07/24/2008 - 15:07"Raiding with Garreth, Chapter 1, Verse 1: If you are competent and talented you will eventually get the worst possible group synergy because Garreth expects you to be able to 'handle it' while he babies the others that can't."
I KID, PEOPLE! But you do rock, Magnus. Thus, I fuck you over on group buffs, LAWLLAWLLAWL.
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Lol should have picked up on
Karli — Thu, 07/24/2008 - 14:50Lol should have picked up on that. Still is the same amount of healers though, and goes back to my last question: how few healers can we get away with on this fight?
We really need 8 here.
garreth — Thu, 07/24/2008 - 15:01We really need 8 here. Though in the future we could possibly get away with a single burn healer (paladin or focus priest), bringing our healers down to 7.
Karli, I was also meaning to ask: Can we get Kybosh over 1500 dps? I remember him doing 1500 dps on Rage in Hyjal months ago, is there a wall he's hitting? I tried to model a 2h dps warrior using an EJ spreadsheet and it pegged him at a potential of 1750 dps. I don't really trust spreadsheets for classes I don't play, so take it with a grain of salt. Is he capable of more damage?
Rupta, what numbers are you capable of hitting by Monday on the bird?
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Garreth, If you look at
Kybosh — Thu, 07/24/2008 - 19:26Garreth,
If you look at almost any parses on this thread
http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t14875-warrior_endgame_pve_2-hand/
You'll see that the max you can expect out of any arms warrior on Brut is about 1600 dps.
I could use some elixirs of demon slaying instead of flasks, and I ran out of haste potions about halfway through the night.
In reference to 1700 dps rage kill, you have to remember that that is a very short fight that includes me executing at 20% in conjunction with heroism, Deathwish, Recklessness and a haste potion. Last night we were blowing heroisms at 30% before I reached execute range, and the few times we did have them, I had burned through my haste pots and recklessness on prior attempts (recklessness has a 30 minute cool down.)
I will experiment and see what I can do to up it. But honestly, I was very happy with my dps output last night.
Rock on, Ky. That's what I
garreth — Thu, 07/24/2008 - 23:00Rock on, Ky. That's what I needed to hear. The debuff contributions that you put are a significant raid-booster, and you're a lot of dps.
Just trying to make sure we're maximizing the living shit out of everything we got.
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Rage has lower armor.
saedo — Thu, 07/24/2008 - 15:03Rage has lower armor. Probably lowers it 200-300 DPS compared to Brut if it's anything like a rogue's loss in dps.
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Clos isn't in there.
Shihli — Thu, 07/24/2008 - 14:49Clos isn't in there. Notice that every name is trimmed down to four letters - that's Closer, not Clos.
Ahhh please don't take my
Karli — Thu, 07/24/2008 - 14:48Ahhh please don't take my mana spring away from me; even for a second! Mana is a royal bitch this fight. I need to suck out every last drop of it; I always seem to be on the verge of going oom. <3
On G's diagram: it looks beautiful, although I think on this computer screen the farthest right row of people are getting cut off (3 of them). Looks like it'd likely be some combo of Epat/Tankard and Shihli? Anyways....um, why is Clos in there? Is he coming back full time or something? Enlighten us.
Also, to stear the conversation in a different direction:
May guilds use less healers on this fight. Is that an option? I do know I hnad the thought cross my mind if that was possible or not when we hit those 3 and 4% wipes.
Saedo - Averaging fireball
Sorahn — Thu, 07/24/2008 - 14:50Saedo - Averaging fireball #s doesn't work well considering how fire mages work. Our damage is very spikey/unpredictable and our DPS is very much optimized around maximizing buffs. Fire mages are also crit friendly - every crit does 210% damage due to Ignite. My avg fireball for the night was 3653, but the range of damage was huge - up to 9213 (this doesn't count Ignite).
So, over the course of the fight a fire mage will have a certain level of DPS with intermittent spikes of MUCH higher DPS when intermittent buffs are applied. Hell in that one 8.5 second chunk of combat log I posted above, I did 6354 DPS. :) That's not necessarily representative - I lucked out with 3 crits in a row, but it can happen.
--- Edit---
heh, I didn't see that this had gone onto a 2nd page before typing up this reply
Yea but the "average" i took
saedo — Thu, 07/24/2008 - 14:55Yea but the "average" i took was basically a merging of all hits and crits and average that. But anyways, did neglect ignite and stuff.
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I'm ran some numbers on
Karli — Thu, 07/24/2008 - 14:39I'm ran some numbers on myself the same way that I ran them for Sorahn. With Heroism I do a TOTAL of 1910 dps (sounds about right to me) and without I do 1870. That's a net gain of 40 dps for the whole fight.
In that case, Saedo, I could
Shihli — Thu, 07/24/2008 - 14:29In that case, Saedo, I could see justification for burning Nhia's heroism early on the rogues - somewhere in the last 1.5 to 2 minutes. Chain two heroisms on the melee.
Giving one heroism to the mages in execute range will be a dramatic boon to their dps as well. Seems like it'd be the best choice. The heroism Nhia has would be a bit wasted on her group - ferals won't get much out of it as they are tanking (and when in cat form, they're already attacking super fast), and hunters run the very VERY real risk of firing so fast they clip shots, dramatically reducing their dps.
Does anyone besides me get
Karli — Thu, 07/24/2008 - 14:25Does anyone besides me get greatly amused when we come full circle? Sounds to me like most of us are being pointed back to the way we've been doing things all along =). It's fun to have the banter along the way though!
LOL, yeah I see it too,
garreth — Thu, 07/24/2008 - 14:30LOL, yeah I see it too, Karli.
So, we have this so far:
Turth pops Heroism for group 5 at 20%.
Jorence pop Heroism for the "mage group" at 20%.
The only person left is Nhia, and where to move her to pop Heroism. My vote is a quick switch to group 5 at about 2 minutes, then immediately move her back.
We'll also shuffle her into the safari group at roughly 60% boss health so she can pop mana tide for the healers who will desperately need it by then. Might need the same from Jorence since her group is already getting an spriest the entire time.
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Heh I enjoy good debates and
saedo — Thu, 07/24/2008 - 14:28Heh I enjoy good debates and nerdy discussions. ;p
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Finndo, you're not going to
Karli — Thu, 07/24/2008 - 14:23Finndo, you're not going to see a caster be affect by the 1 second GCD minimum besides possibly myself. And this is not a fight I can stack haste on (see my post about mana regen earlier).
Fireball is a 3 second base cast, Scorch is 1.5, Frostbolt is 2.5, and a 3 x debuff Arcane Blast is 1.5 seconds.
Even with Icey Veins up and Heroism I'm barely scraping the 1 second GCD during an Arcane Blast spam. But, a 45 second AB spam during heroism would deplete my entire mana pool, so I'm usually looking at about half Frostbolts.
Regardless, my original point is that especially on this fight, the 1 second GCD + Heroism "problem" is not really an issue.
The heroism in her group is
Shihli — Thu, 07/24/2008 - 14:21The heroism in her group is only going to be used during the last 20%.
Plus, Disrupter has already stated that a single fire mage with a single heroism will see a 90-dps "fight-long" increase.
I get that Heroism is a huge dps boost for the melee. It's also a huge dps boost for casters. I get that you want to be a super-hero, but thus far I (and others) have not been fully convinced that heroism is only going to maximize raid-wide dps if it's spent on four specific people.
In fact, this whole discussion has made me more convinced on the idea that letting the heroisms go to the groups the shamen are in (assuming full-on dps groups anyway) will give the largest raid-wide dps benefit.
So from one heroism, Karli
Shihli — Thu, 07/24/2008 - 14:12So from one heroism, Karli gains 70 dps, Saedo gains 35.5. That's what the spreadsheets are saying anyway.
Hmm ok looking further,
saedo — Thu, 07/24/2008 - 14:26Hmm ok looking further, heroism is modelled for 10 min fights on my spreadsheet. A bit of creative editting, I think I can get it for a 6 min fight.
Benefit now: 59.1 DPS
But also remember, the 2 options here:
1 heroism for the mages, 1 heroism for the rogues. and 1 extra one undecided, maybe keep to locks?
or
2-3 heroisms for the rogues.
They def don't as much heroism benefit unless they're in Execute range, so pretty much impossible to chain 2 on them during that time.
While the rogues, can use that 35-60 dps benefit for a huge chunk of the fight.
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But, Karli skewed it to a 60
saedo — Thu, 07/24/2008 - 14:14But, Karli skewed it to a 60 sec fight to look at execute range only.
I have no such luxury.
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I think the only shammy we
garreth — Thu, 07/24/2008 - 14:12I think the only shammy we switch for heroisms should be Nhia, into group 5, at about 2 minutes until enrage. Turth pops his at about 1 minute until enrage.
Jorence stays in her group (no swapping) and saves hers for 20%. This should be the simplest switch and gives us a LOT of end-fight dps.
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Ok Karli, for my more
saedo — Thu, 07/24/2008 - 14:08Ok Karli, for my more detailed spreadsheet modelling numbers:
My own DPS on Brutallus is benched at 2423.4 (think my peak was 2360 DPS, so 96% of optimal)
Buffs include: Imp Gift of the Wild, Improved FF, Mangle, Imp Hunter's Mark, Expose Weakness (1055 Agi), Imp Blessing of Might, Blessing of Kings, Fort, Misery, Expose Armor, Strength of Earth, Improved Windfury, Unleashed Rage, Curse of Recklessness, Improved Solarian Battle Shout, Blood Frenzy, Elixir of Demonslaying, Haste Potions (popped at each CD), Scroll of Agility V, Scroll of Strength V, Thistle Tea, Spicy Hot Talbuk, Drums of Battle, and Deadly Poison.
And my gear of course has procs and have talents and CDs.
Oh and 1 Heroism. Used at anytime, not much a diff for rogues.
Well take off the Heroism and it drops to: 2387.88 DPS
Difference of: 35.52 DPS
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another thing to consider is
Finndo — Thu, 07/24/2008 - 14:04another thing to consider is the haste cap on spell casting, 1sec minimum, where as melee can attack faster than 1.0.
A new Brutallus positioning
garreth — Thu, 07/24/2008 - 14:00A new Brutallus positioning map, according to Shihli's group make-up:
Shihli's group set up is pretty good. We're losing armor and +healing on the tanks, so if we're seeing some tank deaths, we'll mix it up a bit. This physical positions are set up so that Nhia can be quickly traded with Sorreah in the safari group to pop mana tide without people having to really physically adjust. Once mana tide is over, Nhia would go right back to the tank group. We'll try to time this between stomps.
I also have kati eating a slash in Nuit's physical group. It will reduce overall healing needed there, making everyone's lives easier. Of course kati and I will move catch slow Burn runners.
Remember Jorence and Nhia: you guys can run right through the middle to get to your burn spot very fast! Folks like Chrislow would be best to bail out to the West and run around. The #1 thing we are going for on burns is to NEVER get hit with a slash AFTER you have burn. If the slash never gets refreshed, it will wear off LONG before the burn gets to it's terrible damage point, ensuring that burn victims live. If I like them.
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Look at my pretty diagram!
garreth — Thu, 07/24/2008 - 14:32Look at my pretty diagram! Let's get some feedback!
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1 Heroism on the mages at
Disrupter — Thu, 07/24/2008 - 14:411 Heroism on the mages at Execute
1 Heroism on the melee at Execute
1 Heroism either for the Warlocks(whenever) or for the melee (Sometime prior to 20%). I can't say whom would get the better benefit out of that - that'll be up to a warlock and Saedo to argue over.
This is my opinion.
Altogether, what I am seeing
Shihli — Thu, 07/24/2008 - 13:54Altogether, what I am seeing is this:
1) Haste benefits all dps by a large margin
2) Saedo's group getting an additional 2 heroisms results in a fight-long dps increase of approx. 250 dps, split between 4 toons.
3) The mages getting one heroism should result in anywhere from 210 to 270 fight-long dps increase from a single heroism, split between three toons.
In essence, I'm seeing that giving heroisms out to each group, instead of trying to fiddle with group-swapping shamen at the most critical part of the fight, is probably the wisest course of action.
And yes Karli, I was writing my comment as you were finishing your numbers post :P
Shihli did you make that
Karli — Thu, 07/24/2008 - 13:48Shihli did you make that comment before or after I updated my post with the new numbers in?
Rupter, I think the biggest differences you're seeing are affected by the fact that Sorahn has 7% haste, Icey Veins was NOT factored in, nor were trinket procs. We both know those make a huge difference, so my numbers are intentionally conservative.
Ok, Heroism for me. Let's
saedo — Thu, 07/24/2008 - 13:44Ok, Heroism for me. Let's take this attempt: http://wowwebstats.com/cbonmh4ejgxpw?s=189403-218316&a=x6e7cbd#abilities
627 auto attacks, 1 heroism used. Averaged out, that heroism is approx 40/360 x 30% = 3.33% passive haste. Not exactly, cause stacking haste generates more benefit. But for a simple underestimate of this...
So number of attacks increased by heroism is 627*0.0333 = 20.9 more auto attacks.
On average, I hit for 549. So the extra damage = 20.9x549 = 11474.1.
Averaged out over the course of the fight = 11474.1 / 360 = 31.8725 DPS
For a single Heroism, white attack only, using a simple haste averaging. This is again, probably an underestimate.
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So, from that estimate it
Finndo — Thu, 07/24/2008 - 13:56So, from that estimate it would be reasonable to infer that the other rogues in G5 should get another 25-30 added dps. Given that, that would be on the low side about 80 dps for the three rogues per heroism. popping 2 more heroisms over the course of the battle would generate around 160 more dps. The caster damage would be reduced slightly because of their lack of a heroism, but I believe that the increase in melee damage would more than compensate for it.