Pumping Brutallus!
Cisper — Tue, 07/22/2008 - 00:23
I know you guys have had some REALLY clutch Brutallus attempts, so from what I've read, seen and heard, hope any of this can help with pushing it over the edge.
Taken from: http://wowwebstats.com/n11dghenaizn5?s=5014-5259 (5.3 Million Attempt, 13%~).
DPS Wise, a lot of consumables need to be used (You can see from the Restore Mana, different classes opting for Mana Potions vs. Spell Damage Potion, which in the long run can help obviously for longlasting DPS).
Heals on tanks should only be hots from Druids, no Renews. Need to use the Greater Heal/Holy Light like mad. I know conventially you can have 3 Priests/Paladins non-stop spamming Max Rank GH/HL on the tank (Swapping as needed), and give them a Spriest. Along with hots, should be enough, pending on gear + Survivability, may need a 4th. Should leave 4 healers, 1 for each side for the meteor, 2 for burns.
This'll require spamming Mana Pots (on Cooldown), but spamming those heals 95% of the time keeps the tanks up, obviously sometimes they dip (eating a stun usually), setting up a Nature Swiftness Rotation from the Druids/Shamans can help fill in the gap.
For grouping stack, using a Retadin like Hbk can definetly help with the blessings and the bonus damage for the melee, as is the obvious Windfury. An elemental Shaman does wonders for a Warlock/Mage group, but obviously in short supply on Gorgonnash. Having the fuzzy bearz Mnor & Nuit can mean the extra 5% crit for the melee, aswell the heals. Might be worth having Mnor+Orky tank so that you can have a feral with melee - make the Two tanks are in a Holy Paladin + Resto Druid group for the mitigation, Imp shouldn't be necessary, nor Shaman (Stam bonus/Agi).
Make sure you have Resto Shamans + Casters & Healers, between Nhia & Jorence (no more Cali :*(), you can have Two Solid Healer Groups (Tank Group, Tank+Tank+RestoDruid+Paladin+?) and then the other 6 healers ( 2 shamans ) make two 3 member groups, which you can fit in a Spriest each, and a mage each. This shafts Warlocks, hoping to get them in with a BM Hunter, preferabbly a Shaman, but you can only make do.
At a 9% attempt, its clear that synchronisation is solid with heals, knowing where to and the rotation between tanks. It's now a matter of burning cash and making sure everything is clicked well (Like Shihli's ZA Run) everyone is directly benefitted somehow. Burn the cash on those Pots, fully oiled, fed and flasked and pop Heroism, Spell Damage & Mana Potions continuously and win! T6 Belts and a massive relief over a shit and spontaneous boss.
All the best!
~ Jas
I'd think providing a
Shihli — Thu, 07/24/2008 - 13:43I'd think providing a simplistic model is the least you can do :)
I somehow doubt that giving a set of rogues and a warrior a couple of extra Heroisms benefits them to the order of 200 raid-wide dps more than it would giving the same heroisms to other classes.
At the moment we're comparing a very complex and specific model (your spreadsheet) to two very simple models (both of which do not account for a significant number of factors - crits, procs, other abilities, hell even other spells being cast). I'd like to see Karli's numbers in here from Rawr (or whichever model she is using).
I'd like to also see the
Shihli — Thu, 07/24/2008 - 13:35I'd like to also see the numbers that you get for yourself, Shin, and the rest of G5 for heroism, Saedo. I trust your math skills are top-notch, but thus far all we've seen is "I get 69 dps from it." No numbers.
The problem with "numbers"
saedo — Thu, 07/24/2008 - 13:37The problem with "numbers" I'm getting for myself is that it comes from a spreadsheet. Spreadsheets that include a lot of proc modelling which just won't work out typing it out. But if you want, i can do a very simplistic model again with just white damage and heroism.
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Ok here's my simplistic
saedo — Thu, 07/24/2008 - 13:29Ok here's my simplistic approach on the situation.
I see on average, 3675 fireball damage on one of the non-20% attempts. 20% of that is 735 more damage on average per fireball.
Assuming the no lag 3.0 sec cast, in 40 sec, they do 13.33 Fireballs.
With heroism, 30% more haste, for a 2.1 sec cast time, they do 19.0476 Fireballs in that same time span.
So a difference of, 5.714 fireballs cast in the 40 sec span.
The addtional damage then would be 5.714 x 735 = 4200 Damage during the 40 second Heroism in execute range.
Average that over the 6 min fight, we get 4200/360 = 11.67 DPS
Well that's my simplistic approach to the situation.
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If this'll help your
Disrupter — Thu, 07/24/2008 - 13:45If this'll help your calculations, our mages should be near 10% spell haste. Throw in icey veins, which is 20% (about 17% when actually calculated.). Add in heroism, for another 30%.
So thats ~ 60% haste for a mage. Thats not perfect, because I know my fireballs are merely 1.5 seconds, and not 1.4ish.
Now, add Destruction Potions, Flame Caps(Or mana gem, Serpent Coil Braid), Trinket(s). Suddenly, the mage's "current" dps, just climbs through the roof for that 20%. I can't say "overall" dps would be better, but I'm fairly sure if we stack the group right, it would out weigh a 3rd heroism in group 3, done properly.
We don't gain haste on an attack, but we CAN proc it at a good moment, with trinkets, combustion, etc. I really dunno why 30% haste would be such little dps.
According to Rawr, our mages should get nearly 90 total "raid" dps, from a heroism at 20%.
Which would figure into what, 450 dps increase during that 20%? (If I'm wrong please correct me.. I'm not making an educated guestimate)
Saedo - You said it
Shihli — Thu, 07/24/2008 - 13:18Saedo -
You said it yourself, "So let's give a nice simple round number, approximately 250 dps gained from 2 additional G5 heroisms." My estimate (which is highly conservative and needs scrutiny) gives that a single heroism given to the two fire mages when Brut is at 20% would result in a 784 dps increase for each mage. This does not account for Icy Veins or any other abilities - only the "we do 20% more damage when a mob is at 20% health or less" comment.
If you are saying that you and the rogues, as a whole, gain 250 dps for the whole duration of the fight ... then let's take the 784 dps per fire mage (1568 dps for both, total) and divvy it up for the whole fight.
1568 dps * 40sec = 62720 damage
62720 damage / 360 sec = ~174 total dps increase for the duration of the fight
Now let's compare that to the 250 extra dps you get if you get *TWO* additional heroisms:
250 dps (raid-wide) * 360 = 90000 damage
90000 damage / 80sec (duration of two heroisms) = 1125 dps gained over both heroisms
1125 for 2x heroisms divided by 4 (because only 4 dps'ers would benefit) = ~281 dps increase per head.
So Saedo, Shin, Ewiges, and Kybosh would see a net result of approx. 281 dps increase per head, from having BOTH extra heroisms given to them (for a grand total of 3 heroisms - Turth, Nhia, Jorence). Giving a single heroism to TWO fire mages results in a rough dps increase for each one of 784 dps.
Looks to me like the fire mages benefit more from one heroism than the rogues do. But again, my numbers are VERY rough.
Also, you seem to
saedo — Thu, 07/24/2008 - 13:39Also, you seem to misunderstand the numbers. My number is already chaining 3 heroisms. 69 additional dps from 2 extra heroisms. But anyways, I'll work out a simple white damage version since you want numbers.
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Chrislow - Garreth gets
Shihli — Thu, 07/24/2008 - 13:10Chrislow -
Garreth gets periodic moments when he doesn't have to heal people (when a burn gets resisted). Eledin doesn't.
Saedo: I'll play around
Karli — Thu, 07/24/2008 - 13:40Saedo: I'll play around with Rawr and look specifically at some number comparisons for a real-time configuration of a fire mage in execute (molten fure - 20% health or less) range both with and without heroism. I'll pop the numbers back in to this post when I'm done.
Using these constructs with Rawr (sorry it's a long list so anyone can catch if I did something inaccurately):
This is the info specifically from the Heroism + Molten Fury range:
Overall DPS listed for this period of time is 2,841.
Next, I made the following modifications:
Overall DPS listed for this period of time is 1802.
From what I'm seeing on the parses, 1800 dps is a VERY accurate reflection of what Sorahn is doing during the first 5 minutes/80%. So, let's do the math and find out the total dps.
Time at 2800 (rounding down for good measure) = 60 seconds. Total damage done at this dps = 168,000.
Time at 1800 = 300 seconds. Total damage done = 540,000.
Total Time = 360 seconds. Total overall damage = 708,000. Overall DPS = 1,967.
Now, let's go back to our original molten fury/heroism stats and REMOVE heroism. DPS drops to 2394.
For 60 seconds at 2, 394 = 143,640.
Total DPS w/o Heroism = 683,640. Total DPS = 1,900.
The result is a net loss of about 70 dps.
A few things to consider are 1) I'd like to see Saedo show some similar math to back his numbers. 2) Didn't factor in trinkets or Icey Veins. 3) Didn't factor in blocking for Burns, or latency, or random acts of god. 4) The last 20% of Brutallus' health may be our "make or break" moment. Do we really want to risk burning all our other heroisms early?
Discuss.
4) Eledin gets his mana
chrislow — Thu, 07/24/2008 - 13:064) Eledin gets his mana restoration that he desperately needs, without "wasting" a dps'er in a safari group
It doesn't seem like Garreth is having any mana problems. What's going on with Eledin?
Eledin (or any holy pally,
garreth — Thu, 07/24/2008 - 13:45Eledin (or any holy pally, really) has the lowest while-casting regen of any class in raid. Paladins used to be the BEST at regen, before the MASSIVE spirit-int buff recently. Eledin is one of only two people that lay the biggest, non-stop heals on the main tanks -- him and Sorreah.
He's potting at every CD and heavily buffed up with consumables. But at this point a shadow priest will really make or break this fight for us. If we lose a little tank mitigation to pick up some much needed healing, then it's a good call.
I think I'd probably be begging for an spriest at 6 minutes as well if I had to heal the MTs ;)
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Boomkin Analysis! Ok, so I'm
saedo — Thu, 07/24/2008 - 13:03Boomkin Analysis!
Ok, so I'm gonna take a look at our highest dps attempt: http://wowwebstats.com/cbonmh4ejgxpw?s=189403-218316
And do a very simplistic look at the boomkin benefits. Spreadsheets do tell me that I gain 53 dps from Imp FF, but I can't do that for everyone. This simplistic look will look at white damage hit and caster crits to see how much addition dps it brought.
This will be an underestimate of imp FF because I can not easily and correctly model the "chance on hit" and "chance on crit" stuff which boosts dps even further.
Well Rupter himself gave me the 600 DPS difference number to work with too.
Imp FF:
Moonkin Aura:
Healer Moonkin Aura: Eledin
Insect Swarm: Brutallus
Total Raid DPS Benefit: 317.98 DPS
So this is my conclusion of things. Remember, the actual benefit is probably more. Especially for Kybosh's rage mechanics, also missing Combat Potency modelling, and Improved Shadow Bolt, and increased Vampiric Touch mana returns. And whatever else I'm forgetting.
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Some quick math. Saedo
Shihli — Thu, 07/24/2008 - 12:52Some quick math.
Saedo guesstimates that giving the mages would have to result in approx. 250 more dps.
Sorahn is fire, as is Nettibbeb. At 20% boss health, they deal 20% more damage each.
Assuming each of them are approx. 1400 dps (low end), this is a grand total of an additional 280 dps each. Further enhance this by the fact that heroism is a 30% casting speed increase (and thus essentially a 30% damage increase), heroism on the fire mages, BY ITSELF, would be a 420 dps increase for each of them, for a grand total of 840 dps increase. Combined with a 20% damage increase from the boss's health being low, this results in an approx. 784 dps increase per each mage.
Again, this is just some rough math so it's subject to scrutiny and correction, but as it stands it looks like giving the mages heroism at 20% boss health is a VERY good idea.
I'm not going to say what
Disrupter — Thu, 07/24/2008 - 13:13I'm not going to say what class will benefit most from a heroism, what I will say, is how much a fire mage will benefit from a heroism.
With proper consumables, properly placed cool downs, and a heroism at the right time, a fire mage can really, REALLY throw out the #'s. A mage may not be better then a warlock, but during the 20% mark, if you had to decide between the 3 mages, and the 3 warlocks, it'd be preferable for the mages.
I don't know enough about melee to say for sure, if I'm wrong, god forbid, don't give us the heroism, I'd much rather have a DEAD boss, then an epeen damage. But (like I was telling you earlier) I haven't a clue how to figure out the + damage of other classes.
Either way, I just want to see a dead Brutallus. So if you really will get more benefit from stacking all the heroisms in your group, by all means, let's do it. I'm curious though, with Turth/Kybosh unable to drop threat, could that become a problem? If they're given all of the heroisms?
That can't be right. Maybe
saedo — Thu, 07/24/2008 - 13:01That can't be right. Maybe that's more like a 784 dps during the course of the Heroism. I'm talking overall dps number for the entire fight. Damn I'll work out some numbers later maybe. lol And are you treating it as if Icy Veins last the entire heroism too?
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/agree with Rupter. If we
Sorahn — Thu, 07/24/2008 - 12:46/agree with Rupter. If we have at least 2 fire mages, I really think giving fire mages Heroism at the end makes sense since we do 20% more damage when the target is under 20% health. Effectively, that's 40% of a 26th raid member.
If we do this, I'd also like to make sure we're leveraging it fully. On a few occasions, people called out to pop heroism toward the end - between around 25%-30% which was usually around 1:00 to 1:15 from enrage which effectively reduces the benefit of heroism for fire mages quite a bit.
Heroism lasts 40 secs so, IMO, we really should simply wait till 0:40 - 0:45 till enrage OR 20% (whichever comes 1st) to pop it. The timer is up on BigWigs so we should be able to call it out easily.
I'm saving my 2nd 'pop rotation' (trinkets, icy, destro's, etc) till 20% since it makes them much more effective. Stacking this with Heroism is huge. When I was looking through the parses, I found a good example
18:27'53.162 Sorahn's Fireball crits Brutallus for 8669 Fire damage
18:27'54.990 Sorahn's Fireball crits Brutallus for 8725 Fire damage
18:27'56.944 Sorahn's Fireball crits Brutallus for 8774 Fire damage
18:27'58.819 Sorahn's Fireball hits Brutallus for 5583 Fire damage
18:27'59.786 Sorahn's Ignite dots Brutallus for 8276 Fire damage
18:28'00.678 Sorahn's Fireball hits Brutallus for 5703 Fire damage
18:28'01.756 Sorahn's Ignite dots Brutallus for 8276 Fire damage
8.2k ignite ticks ftw
Nope, the shaman would have
Shihli — Thu, 07/24/2008 - 12:05Nope, the shaman would have to stay in the group the whole duration.
Hmm if that's true. Then
saedo — Thu, 07/24/2008 - 12:08Hmm if that's true. Then we can't lose Turth. Would probably have to drop a rogue then. Kybosh has to stay due to rage mechanics.
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A thought occurs ... Group
Shihli — Thu, 07/24/2008 - 11:47A thought occurs ...
Group compositions - currently we're hitting Brut with 2 tanks (both feral), 8 healers, and 15 dps. We need to hit that precarious balance between tank survivability, raw dps, and healer mana sustainability. Currently, most of our healers seem to be doing just fine mana-wise.
Here's what I propose, based on what I think could work:
Grp1: Nuit, Mnor, Nhia, Shihli, Luminaire
Grp2: Keisjaa, Disrupta, Weave, Epat, Enixa
Grp3: Antiquite, Jorence, Karli, Netti, Eledin
Grp4: Garreth, Closer, Katibug, Sorreah, Chrislow
Grp5: Saedo, Shin, Ewiges, Turth, Kybosh
Totals: 2 tanks, 8 healers, 15 dps
This way, we also see the following pros:
1) Higher raid dps (approx. 80-100dps higher) from Shihli receiving Grace of Air totem
2) Higher threat caps from ferals receiving Ferocious Inspiration (3% more damage done) - also means when tanks are in cat form they will be able to do more damage
3) Tanks get strength and agi totems, making them harder to hit and hit harder overall
4) Eledin gets his mana restoration that he desperately needs, without "wasting" a dps'er in a safari group
We do have a few cons though:
1) No tree aura for tanks (less healing done to them, which could be problematic)
2) No devo aura for tanks (less armor, and thus less raw mitigation)
3) "Safari" healer group has no synergy or free mana regen (mana spring totems or spriest)
Thoughts?
If the tanks can stay up,
garreth — Thu, 07/24/2008 - 11:52If the tanks can stay up, we're gold.
The only thing I would ask is that we dynamically switch a shammy into the safari group and call out so healers can get a mana tide. We may adjust healer standing positions so that they are closer to totems.
So Jorence and Nhia would call out mana tide, we'd switch them to safari, pop it and then switch them back.
We'd need someone like Turth who is great with autoattacks to do the switching.
We switch for heroisms (let's just put it int G5 for now for simplicity) and we switch for mana tides. Just have to come up with the list of "who switches who".
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Since mana tide is a totem,
Disrupter — Thu, 07/24/2008 - 11:56Since mana tide is a totem, you'll have to ensure that the Shaman you switch remains in the group for the whole Duration. Or is that false? (Correct me if I'm wrong)
^What rupter said. I'm not
Agoney — Thu, 07/24/2008 - 11:28^What rupter said. I'm not (nor ever will be) convinced about all heroisms to melee.
How many casters have chance
saedo — Thu, 07/24/2008 - 12:07How many casters have chance on spell hit to proc more damage in addition to additonal haste to multiply the heroism effect?
You don't wanna be convinced? Fine. Convince me then how heroism affects you and the other casters.
I would personally gain 69.53 DPS from 2 addition Heroisms. I stand that Shin and Ewiges will probably be a little less than me. But likely in the 60s. Kybosh will probably be more than me due to rage feedback mechanics. So let's give a nice simple round number, approximately 250 dps gained from 2 additional G5 heroisms.
What can the other casters get from a single heroism at 20%?
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I'm pretty sure it sticks on
saedo — Thu, 07/24/2008 - 10:36I'm pretty sure it sticks on group change. It's also a 40 sec buff.
To not rely on Burns to determine our Heroism rotation, it's prob best to work with the enrage timer. 3 Shamans, 3x40 = 120 sec of haste. 2 mins before enrage would be cutting it close esp with reaction times and stuff.
So how bout, 2.5 mins before enrage, start the heroism rotation?
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Yarp, 2:30 left is what I'm
garreth — Thu, 07/24/2008 - 10:47Yarp, 2:30 left is what I'm thinking too.
Anyone know if there is a macro will "replace raid member x with raid member x" in raid groups?
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I'm not gonna be pissed off
Disrupter — Thu, 07/24/2008 - 10:58I'm not gonna be pissed off or anything if told otherwise, but, wouldn't one heroism for the fire mages at 20% be a good idea?
Even if they don't do "as much dps" as the melee group the whole fight, they do have this ability to pop all their cd's while they're 20% more useful, then sudddenly have 20% haste, then another 30% from heroism. Makes them hit fast and hard :P.
Well rotating heroisms on G5
saedo — Thu, 07/24/2008 - 10:18Well rotating heroisms on G5 isn't a new idea. lol
But wait? Are you talking about leaving the resto shaman in place of Turth for the duration of heroism? That's bad then. First I thought Heroism will last after the switch. Second, heroism, windfury, still isn't the biggest buff to G5, it's Unleashed Rage, 10% more AP. So about 300AP to me when I'm buffed with other stuff.
If you're just switching in, popping heroism, and switching out, dropping WF totem is almost useless. In fact, probably detrimental. The WF totem gives a 10 buff for Windfury itself (the chance on proc etc). It refreshes about every couple of sec. So, if you switch someone in for Turth, we should still be getting his WF for the next 8-10 sec. That's your timelimit. If the resto shaman uses WF during that time, we may get the untalented version of WF on us which is of course, not as good.
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Allright, if Heroism lasts
garreth — Thu, 07/24/2008 - 10:29Allright, if Heroism lasts after a group switch, then the plan is moot. I thought that it fell off when the shammy left. If heroism sticks around after a shammy switch, then there's no reason for the resto to drop WF.
I was under the impression that the shammy had to stick around for the full 45 seconds of heroism, and since the shammies were back over by the melee during a burn, then give them wf to help out. Looks like we can just switch them quickly ;)
Who do we want taking care of the Heroism rotations? I vote Turth since he can auto attack quite well between stormstrikes and he doesn't have to move if he gets burn.
I say we start heroism rotations into group 5 at about 3:30 into the fight (2:30 left until enrage). If we're very quick about the rotations and the restos are popping them the moment they switch, then we should be good.
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Here is an idea that Finndo
garreth — Thu, 07/24/2008 - 10:03Here is an idea that Finndo gave me at work which I think is pretty smart:
Nhia and Jorence almost ALWAYS got Burn. Now, this is actually a kick ass opportunity for us. Since Nhia and Jorence are now taking a faster route to the Burn location, this means that they have plenty of time back by the melee. I think that whichever resto shammy gets burn, we trade out Turth into group 5. That resto shammy then drops WF totem and pops heroism.
Since the restos are back there for 60 seconds anyway, why not just use them early, give the melee their haste since they can drop below 1 second attacks, give the melee their totems, and then switch them back? Then, in the final 20% of Brut, Turth pops HIS heroism since everyone will be rotated back to their original spots.
This gives us 3 heroisms on Group 5 as well as allowing our resto shammies to be even more effective than they already are! Burns are now a blessing, not a curse!
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Jailbyrd, it's similar to
Cisper — Wed, 07/23/2008 - 04:00Jailbyrd, it's similar to Elixir of Mastery (+15 All Stats), yet it lasts 2 hours and persists through Death, but only in Sunwell.