Sartharion-10 man, 3-drake ... strategy/discussion thread
Shihli — Fri, 01/16/2009 - 00:37
So I've been reading up on Sartharion-10 man, 3-drakes.
Seems that many successful groups run with 3 tanks, 3 healers, and 4 dps. The idea is to get Tenebron to ~30-40% before Shadron lands, and ultimately kill Tenebron before he spawns two sets of whelps. Once Tenebron goes down the dps moves to Shadron, burns him down ASAP. Then they enter the portal, kill Shadron's disciple, then head up top and kill Vesperon. Once Vesperon is down, they hit the portal and kill his disciple, then kill Sartharion like normal.
This sounds like a decent enough plan to me, however I want the rest of my Lava Crab crew (and ultimately, any other guildie that is interested in the future) to start compiling notes and thoughts here, to see if we can't streamline our strat so that next week, we can enter Sarth-10 3-D and down it, and be the second (I think) guild on the server to do so.
So here's what I was thinking. Here's the typical "Lava Crab" raid setup:
Tanks:
- Nuitarin
- Necroshiliac
- Hbk (for this fight)
Healers:
- Karvinen
- Moriella
- Zildo
DPS:
- Disrupta
- Saedo
- Luminaire
- Quisjaa
My thinking was this: Karvinen on MT heals, with a Beacon on the drake tank (Necroshiliac). I should generally stay within 40yds-ish of Nuitarin, who will be Sarth tanking. Zildo will be raid/flame-tank (Hbk) healing. Moriella will generally stay on Nuitarin, with support heals on everyone else.
The other option would be to have Mori be CoH specced for this fight and have him raid heal, and have Zildo be another MT healer.
As far as killing the adds is concerned, we wouldn't "focus" on it much - when adds start getting a bit out of control, Hbk would call for an adds round, and myself and Quisjaa would move close enough to Pestilence, Blood Boil, and Death-and-Decay the adds. That much AoE would generally be enough to kill them.
Anyone else have any ideas?
So we beat this tonight
Nuitarin — Mon, 03/02/2009 - 23:21So we beat this tonight (3/2/09), we were using the 3 tank 2.5 healer strat in order to make sure Tenebron did not spawn two groups of whelps. Here is a list of who was there, comments to follow will give more detail on the individual jobs.
Tanks:
Deadhli - Blood DK tanking sarth, large breaths were mitigated using DK cooldowns and BoSac from Karv
Nuitarin - Feral tank on the drakes
Pudolski - Protection pally on flame adds and whelps
Healers
Karvinen - Holy pally healing on Sarth tank, other tanks when able
Moriella - Holy priest healing on raid and drake/flame tank when able
DPS
Zildo - Elemental shaman and off healer during shadron/vesperon and healing in the portals.
Luminaire - Survival hunter
Saedo - Rogue
Quisjaa - 21/50/0 frost DK
Disrupta - Boomkin
Notes on what I did (I'm the drake tank) during the fight: On the pull, use Sarth to get rage to full then move to Tenebron spawn point. Grab Tenebron and move for the first flame wave. Try to move to Shadron's spawn point as soon as I can.
When Shadron drops and im tanking both drakes, I use some survival cooldowns. Use heroism when Shadron lands. Use berserk to increase the AOE damage. Dodge waves untill the third drake lands.
Lumi misdirects Vesperon over to me. It seemed best to tank all the drakes in one spot to save run time and for healer range. Use some more mitigation cooldowns while tanking both drakes. After Shadron dies, dps and Zildo take portal and kill Shadron's disciple. Kill Vesperon, then I take the portal and tank the Vesperon acolyte. After that, use innervate/battle res as needed and taunt sarth off sarth tank since I take a bit less physical damage than he does. Have someone judge wisdom on Sarth, Win.
Fight may have been easier with a ret pally and/or a shadow priest. The healing was very intense according to the healers.
I just Hit stuff till it
Keisjaa — Tue, 03/03/2009 - 07:11I just Hit stuff till it stops moving & don't stand in shit
(will add details at some point)
Hey, thats been my bossstrat
Dragon — Tue, 03/03/2009 - 09:29Hey, thats been my bossstrat for awhile keis :D
healing
moriella — Tue, 03/03/2009 - 00:03This was the toughest healing fight I think I've ever done. Intense was not the word for my job. It starts off very light with just tenebron but quickly ramps up to madness. I found the best rotation , if you could call it such was CoH, GHeal, PoH, PoM - I had no spare C/D's for renews during the peak time of the fight. It seemed like for 60 seconds of this fight 8/10 raiders were under 50% health. I ran a pretty typical holy spec but dropped a point out of serendipity to pick up LoLwell as I reasoned LC was very smart raiders and with our dps heavy group it could work.. I know Nuit used it quite a bit when he had two drakes on him, and there were some dicey times. Maybe it was worth it. Parses show it did 80k of healing. Mana was tight, I potted early and my shadow fiend got insta killed (typical) , nuit innervated me late in the fight after vesperon died or I would have gone OOM.
I did this fight with 2985 spell power raid buffed. 25%ish crit about 1200 intel/900 spirit and only about 120 haste. I felt like it took every bit of that to get the job done. Looking at the parses, I had some amazing crits.
Overall, this is 'hands down' the hardest fight in WoTLK, much harder than the 25 man version. Our Melee heavy raid was far from optimal. I 'think' we just did a very hard mode of a extremly hard fight, due to raid comp. Square peg? Round Hole? Downfall all present and accounted for! We will make it fit!
A ret pallie judging light would have made this much easier.
Hope some more of you guys get it before the patch!
I have to admit. there were
Desteran — Tue, 03/03/2009 - 17:36I have to admit. there were moments of relief when I saw all of grp 2 with incoming heals. Ele does not have the throughput (obviously) that resto has, my chains were just keeping people up waiting for your big heals. Great job all around.
excited
moriella — Mon, 03/02/2009 - 13:49I am pumped about tonight. I think most of us were really starting to feel the frustration of banging our head up against the same place in this fight for months now. There are several great suggestions that we have come up with in this discussion, and I think some sort of change is definatly needed. We have some up with several different ways to incresase our dps and I think this could push us over the top in this fight.
Shihli, have you worked out exactly which of the ideas we are going to try to incorporate tonight. I iimagine several of us could use an hour or two to reoptomize if our roles are changing, so some heads up from you here would really help!
edit - crap, i posted this to the wrong thread....... there is another thread here somewhere discussing the new LC strats
Ya though some of the info
saedo — Mon, 03/02/2009 - 13:54Ya though some of the info there would probably help others in this thread too.
For the others that wanna see: /node/5704
Things of note are a very specific analysis of the parses in our recent attempts, and looking through some of Fusion's parses. And if you didn't even know Fusion, they're one of those top in the world guilds that is also responsible for this site: http://www.stratfu.com/
What kind of blood spec are
Atar — Mon, 03/02/2009 - 10:23What kind of blood spec are you looking at for tanking Shi?
My 10man seems to be on the same track at LC. What are you guys getting Tenebron down before Shadron lands? Unless he's dead already.
We do find it better having Everstar tank Sarth and I tank drakes. Seems we get a lot more dps in when I'm tanking drakes.
No, Tenebron is still up when
saedo — Mon, 03/02/2009 - 12:03No, Tenebron is still up when Shadron lands, and will always be in a 10m (for now). But you want him at 30-40% when that happens and kill him before the 2nd round of whelps.
It's most likely your group is getting the 5% crit when you're tanking Drakes.
I'll try to get our parses up
Atar — Mon, 03/02/2009 - 12:39I'll try to get our parses up this evening sometime so we can compare our attempts.
Last night I tried a more Physical dps approach. Our raid comp was:
Surv Hunter: Derch
Marks Hunter: Runhilian
Rogue: Roguered
Ret Pally: Dragon
Ele/Resto Shaman: Prime
Holy Priest: Lorb
Holy Pally: Kosmos
Tanks: Atar, Grov, Foreverstar
I'm think for next week that I'm going to try a more caster heavy group. With a raid dps comp of a moonkin, arcane mage, destro/demon warlock, surv hunter and ele/resto shaman.
I'm just trying to find what meshes better to get more dps. Any thoughts?
Well parses will help. Only
saedo — Mon, 03/02/2009 - 13:00Well parses will help. Only question I have atm is if Roguered is keeping up Expose Armor.
For the caster group, if you truly want it to synergize better, I'd say drop the Surv Hunter for a Shadow Priest. Probably wouldn't go demon lock. And with that comp, synergy wise, probably a frostfire mage with Imp Scorch be best, unless arcane can do it?
Anyways, can't be sure, but I believe we're gonna be trying out 2 healer strat to emulate Fusion now. Probably not a half breed dps to help heal in the end. Fusion does full dps. Heal only in the clutch of situations it seems.
I suppose we'll give it a
Shihli — Tue, 01/20/2009 - 11:41I suppose we'll give it a shot with Hbk as prot, and Lumi as survival. Everyone else in their typical specs.
no replenishment
moriella — Sun, 01/18/2009 - 19:10Three healers with no replenishment......
Last try there were only two healers. Having three reduces the demand on each one.
H Pallie and Disc are the most mana efficient, endurance healers in the game.
If we go this way I'll regem +int and bring along a skad of int scrolls since we have no mage. Due to my rapture mechanics, the extra int will really pay off.
Just bring enough for rupta,
Disrupter — Tue, 01/20/2009 - 04:38Just bring enough for rupta, disrupter can int the rest of you guys.
I Have to agree I think the
HBK — Sun, 01/18/2009 - 20:38I Have to agree I think the best setup over all will be.
Deadhli-Sath
Nuit-Drakes
HBK-Adds
Karv ,Mori, Zildo- Healing
Luminaire-DPS
Quisjaa -DPS
Saedo-DPS
Rupta-DPS
I still see one prob we might run into not haveing replenishment is One of the healers which I believe will be Zildo will be dpsing the first Drake. Will Zildo or Other Healer be ok with mana doing this than going full time healing when the 2nd drake lands?
I was struggling with mana on
Desteran — Mon, 01/19/2009 - 09:57I was struggling with mana on 2d but I havnt struggled in the mana department in so long I wasnt using Mana Tide as well as I could have (i.e. dropping it early).
It is worth a shot but I have been stacking Int for replenishment/mana tide (not to mention the extra SP/crit I get from it). While I know Derch is very experienced at Surv., his DPS is really good on alot of fights and while I try to heal pets they are certainly low on the priority list so I wouldnt discount Surv DpS too much.
So I say, we can try w/o replenishment but if I am going oom we may have to take a second look.
so from the looks of it
Keisjaa — Sun, 01/18/2009 - 15:23so from the looks of it overal our break down & choices seem to sit like this
TANKS:
Deadhli(sarth) prolly guaranteed, most cd's to avoid breaths etc
Nuitarin(Drakes) Has a shit ton of armor & HP & can prolly tank 2drakes for the longest time(which seems to be needed in 10man)
**Whelp Tank (HBK/Karv) it sems like the choice here is what we need elsewhere to determine who gets this spot(more on this after)
HEALERS:
Moriella: prolly on sarth tank to avoid bubble issues(also can shield/Pain Suppression)
Zildo: option 1- chain heal on drake tank so it splashes to melee or 2 chain heal adds tank & have it splash on melee when they're rounded up on the drake(also splashing onto the drake tank)
Karv/Rupta: same deal as the 3rd tank decision(see below)
DPS:
Quisjaa / Saedo / Lumi / whoever
** So now we sort out what goes where in the fill in spots
HBK on whelps / Karv on heals / Rupta on DPS
-I personally see this as the best setup overall, Karv and Rupta are both in their primary roles(therefore their best gear so to speak) HBK's prot gear is quite good & with a bit of prioritizing we can likely fill the couple gaps he needs
-we lose replenishment, which in a long fight like this is gonna suck. I'd like to see how bad it actually is without it (remebering we'll have 3 spec'd healers this time so it's 50% less work for each one)
Karv on whelps / Rupta on heals / HBK on DPS
-I don't know how Karv's tank gear is or how rupta's healing gear is but i magine they're both pretty good(this is kinda my issue here as well..it's still just pretty good for 2 people's gear as opposed to 1 in the 1st layout) I'm also not as sure that a priest-druid-shammy setup is optimal for this fight where there's 2 tanks taking a lot of spike type dmg (drakes/sarth) where a pally would seem to shine.
-we regain replenishment
Lumi respec'g to survival may be an option but i'd only recommend it if we're getting desperate for replenishment, as BM he's a TON of dps he keeps hit pet up most of the fight and know the ins & outs of how to do so. My main worry will be if he does respec he's not gem'd/geared for survival so his dps would likely go down(cause BM's insane) so would the mana replenishment just get chewed up by the extra time we'll spend on the fight with lower DPS..?
Sorry if it got really long & wordy i was mostly trying to type stuff as i thought of it
In which case, up for your
Shihli — Sat, 01/17/2009 - 14:26In which case, up for your consideration:
HEALERS:
- Disrupta (resto)
- Moriella (disc)
- Zildo (resto)
TANKS:
- Karvinen (prot)
- Necroshiliac (unholy tank spec)
- Nuitarin - (feral bear spec)
DPS:
- Hbk (ret)
- Luminaire (BM)
- Quisjaa (0/32/39 DW)
- Saedo (highest single-target dps spec)
Moriella heals the Sarth tank, Disrupta heals blaze/whelp and drake tanks, Zildo dps's until Shadron lands then raid heals as needed.
PROS:
- high dps that is well-stacked (all melee)
- 3 tanks and 3 healers
- replenishment to restore mana to the healers
- prot pally tanking whelps/blazes will have an easier time staying alive
- unholy DK tank can mitigate spell damage from the drakes or Sartharion depending on which one I am tanking
- feral tank has high HP so they can take a hit
CONS:
- no holy pally for "free" Beacon heals or other shields
- resto druids are not well-designed to handle the burst damage that drake tanks will be tanking from 7k breath attacks
One last thought though -
We need to confirm how Disrupta's healing gear is coming along, as well as how Karvinen's tanking gear is coming along, before we can consider this setup.
tanks
moriella — Sun, 01/18/2009 - 12:52This is certainly a different twist on it. However, as a reminder - dont put a bear tank on sarth and expect a disc to keep him up. Shields are buggy as heck on bears until the patch hits. It's little better than putting a shadow priest on the MT. If we do it like this, Shihli has to tank Sarth if I'm to be the MT healer.
Here is what a Unholy Dk tank on EJ says
(when asked about spell/magic deflection talent working on breaths)
"But don't take it because it's bugged. If you proc Magic Deflection, it will override your other percentage mitigation abilities (AMS, Bone Shield, IBF).
If you're looking to tank Sarth as a DK, it's pretty easy for Unholies right now. Save Bone shield until Shadron lands. Pop it about 5-10s after he lands (when his disciple appears). After first breath, pop Lichborne/whatever avoidance you have. It should hold until Vesperon. Then you have AMS, IBF, and AMZ to eat the next 3-4 breaths, Sac or GS another. By then, Bone Shield should be up again and Shadron should be dying.
And always make sure to hold an FU after Vesperon lands so you can knock off twilight torment when he's going to breath."
In 25 man max breath is 70k, in 10 man reports are that mathematically it can be 60k but no one has seen higher than 50k
]I could go holy and MT heal Nuit, however Guardian Spirit is also currently bugged on bears :(
I *should* be capable of
Shihli — Sun, 01/18/2009 - 13:19I *should* be capable of tanking Sarth.
I don't take Magic Deflection so that won't be a problem.
Why he recommends saving bone shield is a bit beyond me, along with expecting Lichborne to hold until Vesperon lands. But I know how to rotate my CD's to make it work.
Zildo switching to healing in
saedo — Sat, 01/17/2009 - 14:38Zildo switching to healing in the 2nd half should help with that druid weakness with the Drake tanks, hopefully.
I will probably mess with Mutilate, better single target, Murder gives 4% damage boost to Dragonkin (that's on top of already being better at single target), and will also glyph for Expose Armor to give another debuff. I do have the best Mutilate daggers in game already, though my gear is not quite optimized for min-max mutilate dps, it's still fine for it.
So what's the thoughts on how
saedo — Sat, 01/17/2009 - 13:14So what's the thoughts on how the dps should spec to synergize better?
Well, here's what I've
Shihli — Sat, 01/17/2009 - 13:24Well, here's what I've gathered. Our options are:
1) Tanks = me, Nuit, Hbk - probably the best tank combination we have available to us. I can tank drakes or Sarth apparently, Nuit would tank Sarth or drakes, and Hbk would tank flames/whelps.
Healers = Karv, Zildo, Mori. Again, best combination of healers we have access to.
DPS = Saedo, Disrupta, Lumi, Quis. Now here's the thing - with our traditional raid specs we wouldn't have access to replenishment, meaning our healers (and Disrupta) will likely go OOM a whole lot more quickly.
2) Same tanks, same healers. Have Lumi spec survival for replenishment - it will drop raid dps but it will bring better longevity to the raid's mana users.
3) Tanks = me, Nuit, and * Disrupta *. However, Disrupta will not be able to block whelp/blaze attacks, so he will take a bit more damage and the armor debuff they have will affect him more negatively than it did Hbk. Lumi would stay BM, and Hbk would stay ret so we have replenishment.
4) Tanks = me, Nuit, and * Karvinen *. Healers = * Disrupta *, Zildo, and Mori. DPS = Lumi, Saedo, Quis, Hbk. This way we get replenishment (from Hbk) *AND* have a prot pally tank. However, this requires a lot more respeccing to specs some of us aren't comfortable with (or even possibly fully geared for yet).
Thoughts?
Wouldn't just having lumi go
Disrupter — Sun, 01/18/2009 - 00:48Wouldn't just having lumi go survival be an option? Having him survival and hbk prot would mean we'd still get replenishment and is more forgiving when learning as my tanky gear isn't quite up to par, and my healing gear is decent but we'd have to wipe a decent chunk before I'd figure out how much to heal/etc.... I'm not quite up to par on the healing front lol. Gear's fine, comfort lvl null.
Having Lumi go surv is an
Shihli — Sun, 01/18/2009 - 13:19Having Lumi go surv is an option, however his dps will be lowered considerably in doing so. It's a toss-up.
Considering I'm going from
Disrupter — Sun, 01/18/2009 - 16:38Considering I'm going from moonkin to resto my dps drops pretty substantially too ;p.
In such a fight, is it really
saedo — Sun, 01/18/2009 - 13:23In such a fight, is it really lowered? Being so pet unfriendly and all.
Further
Shihli — Sat, 01/17/2009 - 12:51Further reading:
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=14318878174&postId...
Depending on HBKs tanking
Dragon — Fri, 01/16/2009 - 08:41Depending on HBKs tanking gear, he might actually be able to stay ret spec for the encounter and just run it in full tanking gear.
Fanatacism was rewritten so that if righteous fury is up the aggro reduction that rets spec into disappears. Another option if he wants to stay ret could be that he goes pvp ret spec at 0/20/51, however you would still lose out on your haste buff anyway.
Does anyone know if the 10m add spawns are susceptible to vindication?
We tried. It's not gonna
saedo — Fri, 01/16/2009 - 11:26We tried. It's not gonna work. First, adds were harder to gather up, squishing others. Second, Hbk goes splat when too many adds are on him. And besides, if he's dedicated to add tanking the entire fight, why bother with ret.