Resto Shammy specs in 3.1
Torvo — Tue, 04/21/2009 - 13:50
We have a lot of disparity in the guild on resto shammy specs. In an effort to theorycraft and identify the best, I've pulled together a list of some of the differences I'm seeing (using me as a baseline, since my primary goal is to figure out how I can optimize my spec for PVE raiding). Any thoughts/debate would be very welcomed.
To kick things off: Spekk, did you copy my spec or are we just thinking 100% the same? I came up with mine just looking at the talents, so I find it amusing that we both have the same one - especially if you didn't grab mine :)
-Improved Ghost Wolf (I don't have it, others do - assuming PVP only)
-Guardian Totems (I don't have it, others do - assuming PVP only)
-Healing Grace (since I don't have threat problems and don't recall any bosses who dispel, thinking this is PVP or crappy tank PVE - correct me if I'm wrong)
-Healing Focus (we seem split down the middle on this one... Some have it, some don't. I don't... Is pushback really that big of a problem?)
-Totemic Focus (5 points feels like a huge investment for only a 5% reduction in totem mp cost, given that over the course of a 6-10 minute boss fight it's only going to save me ~300 mana (assuming a generous cost of 6k mana for 4 totems). Those of you who have it, am I missing something?)
-Healing Way (I have 2/3 points in here, but now that I notice it doesn't impact LHW I'm going to drop this to 0)
-Tidal Waves (I have 3/5 in here, everyone else has 5/5... I was thinking I don't use HW/LHW enough to justify going beyond 60%, but the healing boost of an extra 4-8% (LHW-HW) must have evaded me. Taking the 2 points out of healing way should make this a no brainer)
Is there anything else I'm missing? Is there any reason why my spec as configured (with those two changes) would be anything less than optimal?
Thanks (in advance), all!
RE: Healing Wave
Prime8 — Fri, 07/17/2009 - 14:34I could have posted this weeks or months ago, and probably should have. More experience in Ulduar has given me a different perspective on HW. It has no use in raid. Typically if you're casting it, your heals will just get sniped making for a giant, mana-efficient, overheal. We'll see when 3.2 comes. Until then, 0/3 Healing Way.
Imp Ghostwolf is nice don't
Desteran — Wed, 04/22/2009 - 09:12Imp Ghostwolf is nice don't get me wrong but really it is just enabling you to be lazy....not everybody has run speed buffs and they still have to get out of the fire. If they'd allow us to use it indoors....I might change my mind its situational and kind of a crutch.
While Elemental weapons is a weak talent and is only good for an extra +45 heal....thats +45 healing that is with you no matter which heal you are casting 100% of the time...
I think I've just been spending too much time in Naxx
Torvo — Wed, 04/22/2009 - 10:39Where 0 fights are outdoors. Prime's point below that, in the fights where you can use it, Imp GW allows you to get back into place and start healing again faster, is totally worth it. Say I move 10 times over the course of a Sarth, and each time using instawolf gets me there with enough extra time to shoot off an extra CH while everyone else is running. That's 10 CH worth of healing I wouldn't have gotten to fire off otherwise, even if I could have made it without the instawolf.
vs. the +30 healing from improved weapons spread out over the rest of my heals, I have a hunch that instawolf - if used correctly - can be worth taking.
To Dest's points about not every fight... It's almost tempting to dualspec one with Imp GW and one without. Having DPS is fun, but if I had two situational resto specs that allowed me to optimize for every fight... Might be worth giving it up. Do one thing very well, and you'll be much more valuable than someone who does many things at a less proficient level.
My situation and this could
Lunchbox — Wed, 04/22/2009 - 08:48My situation and this could be just Bad Shaman, but when I was in hamfist I was using HW and now LHW and was doing too much overheal. I see your point as in the event of being placed as raid heal, "and that I am not going to win this argument" It might be all the pvp I have done lately but I guess I just wish they would raise the healing wave totem to reduce mana by 200.
Overhealing goes down as CH goes up.
Prime8 — Wed, 04/22/2009 - 09:05EJ maths has CH about 20% lower than LHW/HW for overhealing, so that could be what you're seeing. If no one is missing health in range of a CH jump, it won't jump and won't overheal. This is actually a bad thing for us as Ancestral Awakening, Earthliving, and Ancestral Healing can proc off any CH jump (AA and AH crits only), and whether the CH hits 1,2, or 4 targets it all costs the same mana.
edit: I haven't been able to verify, but I think Healing Stream Totem still only effects party, even though MST effects raid. That blows IMO.
edit2: I think I missed one of your posts below. It looks like we agree on what to do when a tank is dropping. Fastest heals first.
AA doesn't proc. off CH :-D
Desteran — Wed, 04/22/2009 - 09:07AA doesn't proc. off CH :-D
True enough ...
Prime8 — Wed, 04/22/2009 - 10:11True enough, but my point remains. CH jumps being capable of overhealing would actually be a good thing.
This reminds me of the ole
Lunchbox — Wed, 04/22/2009 - 07:55This reminds me of the ole riptide conversation. I just have a problem with healing wave taking 1k mana to cast.
http://www.wowarmory.com/tale
Lunchbox — Wed, 04/22/2009 - 07:32http://www.wowarmory.com/talent-calc.xml?cid=7&tal=00000000000000000000000000050023300000000000000000000005035331335010501122331251
Ghost Wolf- Not just for PVP. There are alot of situations where this can save you, as well as if you need to reposition in a area thats outside quickly i.e. XT-002 Light bomb, you can hit it and run away quickly and get back to spam chain heals. This is essential for any shammy class.
Guardian Totems- The only other essential out of enhancement is Improved Shield
Healing Grace- When you get to bosses that spawn mobs and such threat can be a problem. It is always helpful to the tanks to reduce your threat if you can. If you think you don't need it then dont put points in.
Totemic Focus- I never use healing wave unless I am using my nature's swiftness macro so reduction in casting time spec is worthless to me. As you need 5 points in either, I would rather put it into something I use, as and this is very true, Healing wave wastes mana. Lesser is faster to spam if you need to focus, and chain heals are used in any other situation.
Healing Way- See Above. You can put those points to better use elsewhere. Don't rely on healing wave or your going to have mp5 issues.
Tidal Waves- Like I said before, I use chain heal, and Riptide + Living Ice Crystals = Solid gold. And as I am either spamming chain heal or lesser healing wave, it's kind of a why not.
With Ulduar, the name of the game truly is CHAIN HEAL so the short burst and mass healing is critical. Especially when tanks take insane amounts of damage in here.
The reason you take 5/5 Tidal
Nuitarin — Tue, 04/21/2009 - 17:11The (PvE) reason you take 5/5 Tidal Waves is so you always cast hasted healing waves. Riptide ->HW-> HW repeat.The PvP reason is so you only spend ~1 sec casting a LHW then you can move. Reduces your chance of geting interrupted.
If you are chain casting heals, the benefit of a hasted LHW starts to diminish. I have problems sometimes bumping into the 1 sec GCD when casting two LHWs after a riptide. The haste on your gear plus 30% haste from Tidal waves can push the 1.5 sec heal under the GCD. Your first LHW will go off in 0.8 sec or whatever but you have to wait until the GCD is over to start another.
flametongue
moriella — Tue, 04/21/2009 - 16:34Give some thought to giving up that totem. Priests totally lost the imp DS(spellpower) buff in 3.1 and warlocks giving that buff are even rarer than warlocks themselves (wtb Warlock KB raid)
Totem of Wrath totally
saedo — Tue, 04/21/2009 - 17:37Totem of Wrath totally overrides it anyways.
Here's another thought
Torvo — Tue, 04/21/2009 - 16:12I'm hearing a lot that Ulduar involves a LOT of being spread out, and that as such it negates a lot of a shaman's opportunities to use Chain Heal (ZOMG!!! I have to press something other than 1!?)
So, that said, what are some ways to spec/gear an Emo Shammy for solo target healing - or raid healing 1 target at a time?
More haste? Specialize in Healing Wave instead of Chain Heal and LHW?
I'll think about this one and bring back more detailed thoughts later. Just seeding the idea now - weigh in if you have thoughts.
test drive
Aurleas — Tue, 04/21/2009 - 20:12I am going to test drive a new resto spec it will lower overall sp a little bit but should be very compatible with what were all expecting in ulduar. I will be dropping 2 points out of elemental weapons and one from tidal force to pick up the three in healing focus. This should give the best raid and single target heals a shaman can have with the imps to HW and LHW while still retaining imp chain heal and having the pushback reduction from healing focus. Any thoughts on this??? ill let you guys know what i think of it hopefully i can get into a competent raid to give it a real trial by fire.
ooops forgot something
Aurleas — Tue, 04/21/2009 - 20:15the build im going to try out will look like this
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#hZ0xxuZx0ehIeoxkrIRt
-Improved Ghost Wolf (I don't
Desteran — Tue, 04/21/2009 - 16:12-Improved Ghost Wolf (I don't have it, others do - assuming PVP only)
- I was a big fan of this in the Archimonde days...now there are just too many other useful talents that provde better throughput.
-Guardian Totems (I don't have it, others do - assuming PVP only)
- Definitely PvP talent for the Grounding Totem aspect.
-Healing Grace (since I don't have threat problems and don't recall any bosses who dispel, thinking this is PVP or crappy tank PVE - correct me if I'm wrong)
- You are right.
-Healing Focus (we seem split down the middle on this one... Some have it, some don't. I don't... Is pushback really that big of a problem?)
- This can be fight specific. In Naxx it wasnt that big of a deal. So far, in Ulduar it is a bigger deal. Mimiron sticks out in my mind as a fight where this is almost 100% necessary. Paired with Conc aura, 100% pushback resistance is awesome. But this is my opinion. I would hate to lose somebody though because of pushback.
-Totemic Focus (5 points feels like a huge investment for only a 5% reduction in totem mp cost, given that over the course of a 6-10 minute boss fight it's only going to save me ~300 mana (assuming a generous cost of 6k mana for 4 totems). Those of you who have it, am I missing something?)
- Waste of talent points
-Healing Way (I have 2/3 points in here, but now that I notice it doesn't impact LHW I'm going to drop this to 0)
- HW Spam isn't too common. I see this talent as having its uses but there are better and/or necessary talents. This talent just doesnt make the cut.
-Tidal Waves (I have 3/5 in here, everyone else has 5/5... I was thinking I don't use HW/LHW enough to justify going beyond 60%, but the healing boost of an extra 4-8% (LHW-HW) must have evaded me. Taking the 2 points out of healing way should make this a no brainer)
-This should be maxed out if for the 100% proc alone. This is the bread and butter of resto single target throughput. Just because were raid healers doesn't take single target healing off the table.
Best Raid spec in 3.1 imo: http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#hZ0xxIZx0euIxoxkrIRt
Thanks Dest...
Torvo — Tue, 04/21/2009 - 16:17You must have been reading my mind on the Ulduar question. Is the loss of enhancing totems (and putting those 3 points into healing focus) negated always (or near always) by having an enh or ele shammy with the ability (or totem of wrath)?
All the raid fights seem to be inside now, which ruins the value of instawolf. I like it especially for going back and forth from the AH and mailbox in Ironforge, but it has no combat value and that's just being lazy.
As for the 3/5 Tidal Waves, my thinking was I almost never do more solo healing than CH-spam, oh shit LHW LHW, CH -spam, etc. The 60% proc hits almost every time as long as I'm casting 2-3 CH in between LHW spams, which is 95% of the time.
beat me to the punch
Aurleas — Tue, 04/21/2009 - 15:37I was actually wondering myself what the other shammies were thinking for 3.1 specs. Personally I have pretty much the same spec as you except i have 5/5 tidal waves which you are changing and i roll with 3/3 healing way instead of the 3/3 in enhancing totems. I know from a healing point of view that losing the increase in sp from imp flametounge totem doesn't seem optimal. But from a raiding view in a 25 man I would think there would most likely be an enhance shaman with 3/3 enhancing totems or an ele shammy with totem of wrath correct me if im wrong. Also i like the fact that if i see a tank in trouble with my current gear and specced for healing way ive dropped an 18k heal with a crit healing wave. Im not sure what i will encounter for situations in ulduar yet but i have found the ability to drop heals like that very handy in naxx and 2 healing 10 man drakes up sarth. I would also love to hear any input if im missing something please let me know.
I like your logic
Torvo — Tue, 04/21/2009 - 16:09And the thought you've put into that, but I'm going off of my current way of doing things -- and right now, I never find myself in need of using HW.
If you're only using HW on a tank in trouble, and all Healing Way does is boost the effect of future HW once you've cast the first one, it's going to be over 5 seconds from the time you realize that the tank is in trouble to the time the Healing Way finally helps the tank. The first HW just activates Healing Way, while the second - another 3 seconds minus haste away - would be the one to pop it. Odds are the tank would live fine without it or be dead before the help gets there, and if the tank is in peril I'm not waiting to cast my slowest heal on him - twice. I'm popping riptide and bouncing a chain heal to keep up my responsibilities as raid healer on the melee DPS -- between the two spells a 4475 (unmodified, average of the range) heal in 2.5 seconds, vs. a 4900 (unmodified, average of the range) heal in 3 seconds with Riptide+Healing Wave (though the Riptide in this scenario will persist as a HOT, in an OH SHIT situation I want maximum healing ASAP - that 1/2 second saved by using chain heal can feel like a lifetime).
Also, while not as mana-efficient over the long term, LHWx2 provides more immediate help by getting the first heal off in 1.5 seconds and the 2nd heal off at the same time HW would have triggered, with more effective healing during that 3 second period (3450 unmodified, average of the range). Plus, by casting 2 spells instead of one I double the chances that my "on cast" procs will trigger... Whether it's a crit trigger on ancestral healing to proc the armor bonus, or a proc from one of my trinkets.
The more I think about it, the less sense it makes to use HW when you're primarily raid healing (exception being every 3 minutes as a total OH SHIT with nature's swiftness - but even then, only casting once... doesn't proc the benefit of healing way).
I hear you on the totems, but unless you're raiding with the same group every week and know for sure you'll never need the benefit, that's a very risky play. Even assuming you raid exclusively 25 Man, what if the other shammy wipes or you're out of range of their totems? I wouldn't want to be in combat without Flametongue or Totem of Wrath on me at all times.
thanks for the input
Aurleas — Tue, 04/21/2009 - 16:22I can see where you are coming from with healing wave being slow as hell. but keep in mind i only use it when my healing assignment requires it and in sticky situations with the holyshit macro ns tthen healing wave. Also being a raid healeri spam chain heals and drop riptides like its going out of style, you have to remember that im 5/5 in tidal waves so its pretty much a garantee that i will have the 30% haste proc for healing wave as well as the additional healing from these talents. Although i havent worked out the math for which would be great hps maybe ill try to figure it out when i get some free time. In my experience healing i have been put into situations in raids possibly due to some bad pug raid leaders where healing way has been a benefit for me. As for the totems i still drop flametounge all the time because like you say i o\wouldnt want to be without it but im not entirely convinced that 3/3enhancing totems is worth it for resto.
Single target healing
Prime8 — Tue, 04/21/2009 - 17:30My spec: <a href="http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#hZ0xgoZx0euIeoxkrIRt">LINK</a>
I agree with Torvo about the pushback. I know its an old raid, but if anyone remembers trying to heal through the last boss in ZA you know how important pushback can be. There's enough encounters with loose adds or AoE boss attacks to make this talent a must have.
3/3 Imp Water Shield, 3/3 HW, and 5/5 Tidal waves are your single target healing talents. Its a lot of points to make you more flexible, but if your planning on using "/castrandom riptide, chain heal", then you're going to overheal and oom more and faster than picking LHW and HW for the right heals. Chain heal spam is awesome, its what we do best, but not every encounter is going to allow you to do it. You can't have the "I'm a shaman, I'm raid heals and the raid is going to stack up so I can spam CH" anymore. I frequently get assigned to healing raid AND healing tanks.
2/2 Imp Ghostwolf is too useful too often to skip for an extra 30 spell power (that's what those 2 other points in Elemental weapons gives you) or an extra 47 mana/20% increase earth shield proc* (2 points in improved shields). Think of chasing the tank for Razorscale, running to the next anti-magic bubble on Maly, or getting around the flame walls in Sarth 3D. Its the same basic reasoning behind Ret Pallies taking Pursuit of Justice. The faster you get back to the fight, the more output you're capable of. I really would like it to be usable indoors, but its still extremely useful.
*although if you're dead set on not taking imp ghost wolf, those 2 points are better spent in Imp Shields rather than Elemental weapons.
edit: not sure why the <a> tag isn't working.
It also depends on your raid
Lunchbox — Wed, 04/22/2009 - 07:47It also depends on your raid role prime. You specifically get assigned raid heals a hell of alot more then I do, so The healing wave is more of a what spot are you set in more. I generally do raid heals alot and then quick burst LHW spam so for you healing wave is used more. Thats why your tree and mine are different.
Unless you're going to dual
Prime8 — Wed, 04/22/2009 - 08:02Unless you're going to dual spec and make both your specs resto, it makes more sense to have that flexibility than not though.
edit:
Maximized for throughput: http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#hZ0xxGZx0euItoxkrIRt
My preference for flexibility: http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#hZ0xghZx0euItoxkrIRt
You can take points out of HW for Imp shields or vice versa, although you should leave at least 1 point in HW.
Elemental weapons has absolutely no scaling, and gets worse as your gear gets better. Total waste of talents unless you just hit 80 IMO.
edit2: Lunch, Totemic Focus? This is generally agreed to be a waste of 5 points, even if your primary function is raid heals.
Regarding HW vs LSW
Prime8 — Wed, 04/22/2009 - 08:43Healing Wave is actually more efficient when not used to overheal than Lesser Healing Wave. Healing wave also has a base spell power coefficient double that of lesser healing wave.*
HW: 1044 Mana | 3034 - 3466. So: 3034/1044 - 3466/1044 = 2.91 - 3.32 pts HP per pt mana
LHW: 626 Mana | 1624 - 1852: So: 1624/626 - 1852/624 = 2.59 - 2.96 pts HP per pt mana
This doesn't take into account a few things, so lets put those out there:
(x)/3 HW, 5/5 Tidal waves, NOT LHW glyphed = 3519 - 4021 (HW proc) + 20% SP benefit
0/3 HW, 5/5 Tidal waves, LHW glyphed = 1949 - 2222 (ES target only) + 10% SP benefit
Another benefit HW has over LHW is that 30% of a 15k crit (3/3 Ancestral Awakening) is equal to a free LHW and almost equal to an entire LHW crit (say maybe 7k, both numbers unbuffed), and 40% higher chance to proc a water shield orb. The only situations where LHW is more efficient are:
-You're almost OOM and you need to keep putting heals out.
-Someone is about to die, then you should be casting riptide, LHW, HW in that order.
-A HW would be overheal, in which case you're probably better off casting a chain heal, its more mana efficient, potentially procs earthliving/ancestral healing on 4 targets, and accounts for any other targets that may take dmg during your cast, the exception being when a HW would be an overheal, and the target is out of range to cause CH to jump.
-You're glyphed for LHW and the target has earth shield.
*Source: http://www.wowwiki.com/Spell_power_coefficient
edit: Forgot to mention the 4pc t7 bonus, that's another 5% for Healing Wave.
There are two kinds of efficient
Torvo — Wed, 04/22/2009 - 10:42Heals per second and heals per mana. While I agree that HW is more economical in terms of mana efficiency, unbuffed LHW still seems to get off more heals per second. There are very few fights where I have mana problems (though I've only got 1 Naxx25 and no Ulduar under my belt since 3.1, I didn't notice a substantial change), and quite a few fights where the issue is getting enough heals onto the tank quickly. So, for the situations I find myself in, heals per second efficiency is more valuable than heals per mana efficiency.
Talented HW still wins
Prime8 — Wed, 04/22/2009 - 11:20Talented HW still wins in HPS.
edit:: With 5/5 tidal waves and 5/5 Imp Healing wave I get my HW cast down to 1.5 seconds, before any buffs.
Further edit: Something I should clarify, I think we don't diverge on what our first 2 casts are when someone is close to dead. I always riptide, LHW first, then hit the HW, riptide, HW, HW to get them up to full, mixing in chain heals or LHW depending on the situation. Riptide and LHW are also what I cast when the target only needs maybe 7k worth of healing. HW is what I switch to for big single target heals, and this is the situation it will win in almost every time over LHW.
Still more editing:
"f you're only using HW on a tank in trouble, and all Healing Way does is boost the effect of future HW once you've cast the first one, it's going to be over 5 seconds from the time you realize that the tank is in trouble to the time the Healing Way finally helps the tank. The first HW just activates Healing Way, while the second - another 3 seconds minus haste away - would be the one to pop it. Odds are the tank would live fine without it or be dead before the help gets there, and if the tank is in peril I'm not waiting to cast my slowest heal on him - twice."
I think I may have been replying to Torvo earlier, rather than Lunchbox. Ehhhh. Ahem. I'm still getting used to how this forum works, I'm used to PhPbb which display newest posts at the bottom by default.
5/5 Imp Healing Wave + 5/5 Tidal Waves + Riptide rotation = 1.5 second HW cast (off the top of my head, you'd need about 580 haste, which if you're relying on CH for almost all of your heals, you should be stacking anyway), pre-raid buffs. If you macro Tidal Force with Riptide, that's a potential of about 30k worth of healing in about 2 seconds (6kish riptide crit, 20kish HW crit, + AA procs for both). That should buy you plenty of time to cast that next 1.5 second HW, or go back to raid healing.
I've gotten a little off topic with ranting and stuff. My point is, talented HW is your biggest (and still as fast as CH) single target heal, is more mana efficient than LHW, and has its uses. You really only need 1 point in Healing Way to keep the buff up if you're forced to focus heal with HW. Take a look at this though:
What's left that's worth taking? http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#hZ0xxhZx0euItoxkrIRt
You're pretty much left with 30 spell power, instant ghost wolf, -10% threat or a 40 minute ankh. If you take that 1 point out of healing way, you've got ... 15 spell power?
agreed
Aurleas — Wed, 04/22/2009 - 22:46I would have to agree with this spec although i am taking 3/3 HW over ghost wolf. This ensures when i have a tank in trouble or anyone for that matter i can maximize single target heals quickly without taking to much time away from raid healing.
My cast sequence would be riptide NS HW HW thats a potential for around 26k healing in 3 secs with only totems down no crits or AA procs and because of the 5/5 TW i am garaunteed quick increased healing HW. With a few crit and AA procs the potential is around 40k single target healing in 3 seconds.
the same cast sequence minus NS would be used when I have to single target heal a tank, riptide to gain tidal waves healing wave when the target is in need of around 10k heal, repeat with healing wave, refresh riptide when cooldown is up rinse and repeat. This would ensure i always have 1.5 second HW casts with the increase from both healing way and tidal waves while retaining better mana efficiency than spamming LHW because in order to do the same amount of healing LHW would need to be cast roughly 6 times depending on procs which takes considerably longer and consume around 3900 mana verses around 2700 for riptide HW HW riptide.....
(sorry if i lost anyone in this wall of text) Please let me know if you see any flaw in what i just stated im always looking to better myself so any input would be awesome. This is my current build updated from the one i posted above due to the lack of tidal force >.<
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#hZ0xxhZx0euIeoxkrIRt
Im lovin my new spec
Aurleas — Sun, 04/26/2009 - 22:51The spec i posted above seems to be working great and is exactly what i was looking for i two healed emalon with a tree so i was using alot of HW covering both tanks but because of the talents i have chosen it wasnt terrible on my mana i could easily time my cd's and procs to always be casting an imp HW. I know alot about specs can be personal preference but for any of you who find yourself doing alot of tank healing in ten mans or even covering the OT in 25's i would recomend this spec its the most well rounded ive found so far.