Operation: Fix Zariyah
garreth — Wed, 09/23/2009 - 10:45
I'm TERRIBLE at shammy theorycraft, but I wanted to run ya through RAWR and get some theoretical numbers. RAWR's version 2.2.19 is supposed to be quite good for elemental under the rotation:
- FS
- Lava Burst
- 6 x Lightening Bolt
- Lava Burst
- 5 x Lightening Blot
- (repeat)
RAWR "theoretical" dps in your gear is 6655 but we all know that this is usually out of reach for most of us. So I added a few "easily" obtainable pieces of gear to its optimizer to get a list of some upgrades. Take all these with a grain of salt and a bit of brain, of course:
- [Nobundo's Helm of Conquest], gem with [Reckless Ametrine]: 50 x [Emblem of Triumph]
- [Flowing Sapphiron Drape] from heroic Ony
- [Spectral Kris] from 5-man heroic Trial
- [Abyssal Rune] from normal 5-man heroic Trial
Anyhoo, I wanted to put it out here for discussion and any input any of our shammies might have!
Groups:
Operation Sucessful
KeithC19 — Wed, 12/16/2009 - 14:25all you newbs and your numberssssss. i fixed it. TOPIC CLOSED.
Sorta...you still haven't
Aidin — Thu, 12/17/2009 - 10:09Sorta...you still haven't told me the name of the proc that we discussed...The one you pointed out with the lightning bolt is from our totem. You remember yet? ;)
If I were ele....this is what
Desteran — Wed, 10/07/2009 - 09:56If I were ele....this is what I would shoot for....
Helm: [48323]
Neck:[47144]
Shoulders:[48321]
Cloak:[47552]
Chest:[48325]
Bracers:[47585]
Gloves:[48324]
Waist:[47447]
Legs:[47479]
Boots:[47099]
Ring1:[48001]
Ring2:[47439]
Trinket1:[47188]
Trinket2:[47182]
MH:[47206]
OH: [47085]
Totem: [47666]
Helm:
Aidin — Wed, 10/07/2009 - 10:23Helm: Check
Neck:
Shoulders:
Cloak:
Chest:
Bracers: On the list
Gloves:
Waist:
Legs: Check
Boots:
Ring1:
Ring2: Check
Trinket1:
Trinket2:
MH:
OH:
Totem:Check
Also. I say this solely
Desteran — Tue, 10/06/2009 - 15:55Also. I say this solely because I want all the caster mail but....dont be afraid of cloth (and leather to some extent). In alot of cases it is better itemized for ele since mp5 is essentially wasted itemization.
Examples: [Bejeweled Wizard's Bracers]
[Icehowl Cinch]
Premonition's Ele Sham: http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Sen%27jin&n=Fec
I generally do not take armor
Disrupter — Wed, 10/07/2009 - 03:56I generally do not take armor that is other than my current level (leather) unless the following occurs.
No one wants it, and it's an upgrade. May as well not let it rot if you can get some use out of it.
If others want it, is it BiS? Will I replace it? Will I beable to make immediate (Example of immediate is, getting the hit belt I want that's cloth and BiS while I'm still extremely past hit cap.) use? If it's BiS and I can make immediate use is generally the only time ill take cloth from a clothy. That, or you're a fill in or I feel I'll make alot more benefit out of it than you. (You gain 2dps, I gain 200.)
As long as you kind of be smart about it you should be fine about not causing drama. I'm doing some theorycrafting and it's looking like I only give up 10 dps using the leather pants instead of a cloth piece. So, I'll be snagging the leather!
The difference is that a
Desteran — Wed, 10/07/2009 - 09:08The difference is that a boomkin can make some use out of spirit. For Ele, you might as well deduct a tier level if an item has mp5 on it as the stat is entirely useless.
Zildo is right, those cloth
Derchlon — Wed, 10/07/2009 - 00:05Zildo is right, those cloth bracers are better than those mp5 crafted mail ones. Icehowl Cinch is another item, and I mentioned it to you earlier in vent. All good options.
You might also want to start using Potion of Wild Magic instead of Potion of Speed. 200 Spell Power, and 200 crit rating for 15 seconds.
Alright Aidin. I've been
Derchlon — Sun, 10/04/2009 - 20:51Alright Aidin. I've been searching and doing research out the ass trying to find ways to improve your damage. I have some theories, but just to start off with I'm going to give you some parses to look at.
The first is your XT hard mode kill: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-QNag04LreDdEH6H7/details/17/?s=249...
Now, here is a Binkenstein XT hard mode kill: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/HyuXHHRaEWkmZCTI/details/12/?s=1976&e...
Just a quick note: He used Chain Lightning 32 times in that fight (9ish minute fight). You used Chain Lightning 61 times in a shorter duration fight (7ish minute fight). Chain Lightning seems to be doing less damage normal, and crit, so does the faster cast time justify its use unless you need to get LvB off quicker? Maybe you should scale back a little on the Chain Lightnings.
Zariyah Lightning Bolt: Norm - 4748.8 / Crit - 10500.5
Askledarea (aka Binkenstein) Lightning Bolt: Norm - 5683.5 / Crit - 12578.5
When I was first researching this, I noticed you were below 500 haste. Since then you jumped up to 600 haste, so I'm guessing thats really good. All of the top elemental shaman in the world have at least 600 haste, some even have close to 800. The really really good ones also have more spell power than you, so I figured I'd use Binkenstein since he has a similar spell power level to you, probably edging you out by about 200. Your haste is now similar.
More to come when I have a bit more time.
Since I can't edit that post
Derchlon — Sun, 10/04/2009 - 21:01Since I can't edit that post for some reason, I'd like to include, that for the remainder of the fight (after the heart dies), Aidin is actually pulling about the same dps as Binkenstein is. Binkenstein's is probably diluted by losing his buffs after he died, but Aidin was within 100 dps.
Aidin: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-QNag04LreDdEH6H7/sum/damageDone/?s...
Binkenstein: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/HyuXHHRaEWkmZCTI/sum/damageDone/?s=20...
I also failed to see that Binkenstein died during that shot, so your chain lightnings are probably right where they need to be.
In my opinion, we just need to throw more loot at her.
Heres some more parse sex for
Derchlon — Mon, 10/05/2009 - 00:32Heres some more parse sex for ya.
Ghando, which you've probably heard of if you're on the EJ forums; do whatever the fuck he's doing.
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-FSPA8OpVcv8jI4YG/sum/damageDone/?s...
9.4 fucking k dps on Koralon.
Breakdown: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-FSPA8OpVcv8jI4YG/details/355/?s=82...
Here is a comparable one for you: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-bhoB5bS1UtXiZViB/details/47/?s=192...
number of lava bursts is similar, but he has almost twice the amount of lightning bolts. Granted he out gears you significantly, but 4% haste should end up being twice the lightning bolts.
Jesus..I wanna be like Ghando
Aidin — Mon, 10/05/2009 - 10:38Jesus..I wanna be like Ghando when I grow up!!!!
He doesn't use CL at all, which is due to his haste level, he has no benefit from CL due to the cast time of LB now. The spreadsheet tells me to use CL AFTER LvB with my current stats. So that's what I do. FS>LvB>CL>LB>LB>LB and so on. I will throw a CL in BEFORE LvB if it gets me to the LvB CD faster then LB....so if Bink is throwing less...I'm not sure why. Still trying to find his detail in his rotation.
Update: Been digging thru details on the parses on XT...and what strikes me as odd..is Bink seems to use more CLs in his roation...yet I had more on the parse?? He seems to hit it everytime it cools down...EXCEPT during heroism, he's straight up LvB & LB during Heroism, I've been back and forth on that one, I'll try taking CL out during hero.
On Ignis and IC, he didn't use any CLs at all....so why use CL on XT but not Ignis and IC? He uses it at Kologarn, which makes sense cause it hits right, body and left. I'll try taking CL out next raid and see what happens. (putting it in upped my DPS last time...so we'll see)
Derch: Thank you so much for taking time out of your day to sit and drill over shaman parses for/with me, it helps to have someone who knows what's going on to help bounce ideas around. If I were still in Portland, I'd so make you cookies.
Maybe he used Chain Lightning
Derchlon — Mon, 10/05/2009 - 16:45Maybe he used Chain Lightning on Sparks, so they could splash onto XT, or vice versa?
He used them outside of the
Aidin — Mon, 10/05/2009 - 18:53He used them outside of the sparks (but yes I understood why he did on sparks)
ShamanChain LightningWe don't
Atakheal — Sat, 09/26/2009 - 06:49Chain Lightning
We don't want shamans to just push CL in all situations. We don't think that will be the case though. If you're a very sophisticated shaman and want to cycle in CL sometimes against single targets for a marginal but legitimate dps increase, there is nothing at all wrong with that.
I think some of our best class designs come out when a mediocre player can get X performance out of the class with a simple rotation, but an exceptional players can coax slightly > X damage by doing a more complex rotation. (Source)
is a Ghostcrawler answer.
Atakheal — Sat, 09/26/2009 - 14:28is a Ghostcrawler answer. just posting.
Atak, I've learned a bit more
Aidin — Sat, 09/26/2009 - 10:13Atak, I've learned a bit more about CL. It's purly situational dependant upon the shaman's haste. Elitist jerks shaman Binkenstien is a much better sourse for information then the random poster.
http://elitistjerks.com/f47/t20914-shaman_elemental/
Try the spreadsheet, plug your stats in the green slots and see what it says you should do : http://elitistjerks.com/blogs/binkenstein/407-elemental_patch_3_2_2_seic... What I found out is that I do need to put CL in my rotation, immediatly after LvB. I'm now breaking 4-5K dps, a huge increase for me.
*teases aidin* Oh so you
Dragon — Sat, 09/26/2009 - 11:47*teases aidin* Oh so you might be able to catch up with me this week in 10m ;)
Check out the EJ forums on
Aurleas — Wed, 09/23/2009 - 19:41Check out the EJ forums on ele i went through this with keiffer haste is a very good stat for ele because you already recieve alot of crit from talents we found that keiffer could pick up around 800 dps just by regemming and itemizing gear with haste to get to around 20% haste i personally have no experience with ele this is just my two cents and it seemd to help keiffer out alot.
Thanks for trying
Aidin — Thu, 09/24/2009 - 09:21Thanks for trying Aurleas (can I call you captain obvious?)...but I need more then the obvious here. I know what my good stats are, I have been all over EJ since I swapped to my shaman, and I use Binkinsteins spreedsheet.
We're looking for ways/things to make me BETTER.
Rotation...This I have been
Aidin — Wed, 09/23/2009 - 11:01Rotation...This I have been playin around with. FS>LvB>LBx3>Lvb (refresh FS rinse repeat) is what I think you meant up there ^^ too many LB's in your rotation (need to refresh FS and MUST hit LvB asap when it's up)
The infamous Binkenstein suggested in a post yesterday trying a FS>LvB>CL>LBx2>LvB>CL rinse repeat. Why? LvB will proc Clearcasting, and you get more bang for your buck out of CL (I watched my DPS go frm 3300 to about 4K with this rotation.)
Gear: I'm collecting everything I can from badges and collecting badges like a mo-fo (and no on the gem for that helm...Ele never ever ever ever gems for haste....I'd go a straight JC 39SP ignoring the socket bonus)
Cape: list of low level crap to replace already
Dagger: Rupta got his [46979] ...I'm next in points (25 man H.TOC) although you know I'd roll on this one too if it ever dropped...sigh
Trinket: still chasing
I WOULD LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOVE some advice, or some chat re: ele, my gear, my stupidity...whatever.
Nope, RAWR and some other
garreth — Wed, 09/23/2009 - 11:15Nope, RAWR and some other models stand by the rotation I posted. (yes that many):
And Binky himself said (as of 9/20):
"I haven't done any detailed investigation yet, but it suggests that for certain small haste values, it may be better to gem for haste rather than spellpower (however, since this is a small 0.25% range, it will probably not be worth worrying about)."
I think this is RAWR just trying to get you up to the minimal "cap". There were lots of other pieces of gear that I had RAWR simulate, I only posted a few. You must have lost enough haste for RAWR to attempt to gem it back up to that "cap".
I'll test dummy the
Aidin — Wed, 09/23/2009 - 12:22I'll test dummy the rotation...but I can already tell that 1. FS will fall off and 2. LvB CD will be missed which is a big big Elemental no no.
Test dummies are kinda
saedo — Wed, 09/23/2009 - 12:32Test dummies are kinda terrible for this. You have less buffs, less haste, less crit, less hit, etc.
Also, the Elem version of Rawr seems a bit... Rudimentary. It doesn't have all the fancy options like in mages/pallies at least where you can adjust various latency, interruptions, activity, etc. It doesn't even give me a cookie cutter Elemental Spec, only a single Resto Spec.
Honestly, I don't think it can be trusted.
A quick look into EJ forums I can already see Binkenstein as a big contributor, try out his spreadsheet: http://elitistjerks.com/attachments/f79/a6421d1253225285-elemental_seic_...
Yea I'm not thinking Rawr
Aidin — Wed, 09/23/2009 - 12:44Yea I'm not thinking Rawr likes the Elementals...
I have been playing with that spreadsheet for quite some time Saedo...and to be honest with you...it really makes my head hurt...do you think you could sit down with me in vent and look over some things and help me understand some of the things that make my brain go "WRF???"?
http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AjisbjSm7mHvdEtkV2NIb2txX1pib2hn...
Have to learn the
saedo — Wed, 09/23/2009 - 13:22Shit! Have to learn the spreadsheet of a class I've never played before! lol
Ummmmmm, from the looks of things, it doesn't have a built in gear list you can check. The current sheet is probably where you have to enter your own stats of your gear. And use the WoWHead link values to get a gear list upgrade.
As for rotations, it looks like it's on the New Rotations page, it seems to outline a 20ish second cycle if you can call it that.
Entering your stats, I see the rotation as
I assume repeat, think FS lasts 18 seconds, so you apply it right after. But this probably assumes no lag perfect reactions. I'd guess you'd lose 1-2 LBs in there in practice.
WoWHead gear ranks would be:
If you don't need hit: http://www.wowhead.com/?items&filter=qu=3:4;ub=7;gm=4;gb=1;wt=123:103:96...
If you still need hit: http://www.wowhead.com/?items&filter=qu=3:4;ub=7;gm=4;gb=1;wt=119:123:10...
Just ignore trinkets I guess and go with the spreadsheet table there.
Here's your sheet with your
saedo — Wed, 09/23/2009 - 13:37Here's your sheet with your stats: http://stats.downfallguild.org/SEIC%203.2.2%20r19a.xls
I've had a chance recently to
Disrupter — Fri, 09/25/2009 - 04:33I've had a chance recently to fiddle around with an elemental shaman, and I was under the impression from my minimal amount of testing that basically the following was your best option...
Flame Shock > Lava Burst > Chain Lightning > Lightning Bolt
Is that about right? It doesn't seem too complicated but there is probably some more to it then that. What comes to mind as the most complicated thing that might come up is, flame shocks going to fall off before you finish the lava burst... should you relavaburst first or do a chain lightning or a lightning bolt then flame shock then lava burst.
(I'm assuming chain lighting in that situation, if it just came up, would be best, but that's just an assumption.)
YES I KNOW A LITTLE BIT ABOUT ELEMENTAL SHAMANS, AND IF I TELL YOU TO GO GHOST WOLF YOU'RE GOING TO FUCKING GO GHOST WOLF. /rant off.
My understanding is that CL
Desteran — Fri, 09/25/2009 - 09:31My understanding is that CL should be used as a filler in situations where you dont have the cast time to get a full LvB or LB off (i.e. gonna have to FS shortly there after or move or, of course, where you want splash damage) because the coefficient on LB is that much better than CL. I think that changes when you get to certain lvls of spellpower though (not sure) and while I havnt looked in a couple days the theorycraft is still up in the air with the changes in 3.2.
That being said, only thing that I know you should do Aiden is swap out that Flame Shock glyph (your 2pc t8 takes care of that). According to the spreadsheet Saedo posted Glyph of Lava is your next choice.
2 days in a row I forgot to
Aidin — Fri, 09/25/2009 - 12:342 days in a row I forgot to fix my glyph. Wrote a note on my hand to not forget tonight! lol
And you're right about CL as a filler unless certain levels of haste (not spellpower) change the rotation. Currently I'm using CL after LvB and CC proc and as a filler prior to a LvB if LB will put me over the limit to get to that LvB CD right away.
So far what I learned : I R DOIN IT RIGHT! lol