Wrath Raiding Rogues
saedo — Mon, 12/29/2008 - 12:48
Thus begins my long process of typing random stuff about rogues. If there's something in particular you wanna see first, post it. Otherwise it'll be a random thought. To start off with:
Sources:
Quick and Dirty FAQ:
1. What hit rating should I be at?
- STFU about hit rating. First off, there is no magic number. Second, caps are only around so you're aware how they affect the relative value hit rating. AP, Agi, ArP, Haste, Crit, Exp all give you dps too in some degree. All you should want to know is how much each is worth, not specifically aiming for any magic number for any of it.
- There is one possible exception for Mutilate rogues, being Expertise capped (and yellow hit capped) is usually very worth it. Your cycles are highly dependent on Envenom hitting, and the stat weights generally reflect this value anyways.
- Use one of the spreadsheets
2. I heard fast daggers were good for mutilate, should I use 2 fast daggers?
- Speed is just another stat. Slow daggers work fine if they are sufficiently above in quality over fast daggers you can obtain.
Upcoming Changes in 3.1:
General
- All classes now receive 25% more benefit from Armor Penetration Rating.
- Applying a glyph no longer requires a Lexicon of Power. The same rules for switching between dual talent specializations now apply to switching glyphs and cannot be performed while in combat, Battlegrounds (except when Preparation is up), or Arenas (no exceptions).
Skills
- Envenom now gives an additional 15% chance to apply Deadly Poison and a 75% increased frequency of applying Instant Poison for 1 sec plus an additional 1 sec per combo point. (Previously gave a 15% chance to apply both deadly and instant poison)
- Expose Armor now reduces armor by 20%, lasting longer per combo point.
- Shiv: This ability can no longer generate a critical strike, and the poisons it applies cannot be critical strikes either.
- Deadly Throw: Missile speed increased.
- Master of Subtlety: The amount of time remaining on the damage bonus for this talent is now displayed.
Assassination
- Hunger For Blood (Tier 11) changed to: Enrages you, increasing all damage caused by 15%. Requires a bleed effect to be active on the target. Lasts 30 sec. (Previously increased damage by 5%)
- Hunger for Blood now lasts 1 min. Energy cost reduced from 30 to 15.
- Improved Poisons (Tier 4) changed to increases the chance to apply Deadly Poison to your target by 2/4/6/8/10% and the frequency of applying Instant Poison to your target by 10/20/30/40/50%. (Previously increased chance to apply Deadly and Instant poison by 2/4/6/8/10%)
- Master Poisoner: Now also increases the bonus to apply Deadly Poison when Envenom is used by an additional 15/30/45%.
- Lethality now affects all combo point-generating abilities.
Combat
- Savage Combat (Tier 9) now increases damage caused against poison enemies by 4%. (Previously increased damage by 1%)
- Adrenaline Rush (Tier 7) cooldown reduced from 5 minutes to 3 minutes.
- Killing Spree: Now also increases all damage done by the Rogue while active by 20%.
- Lightning Reflexes (Tier 4) is now a 3 point talent and Increases your Dodge chance by 2/4/6% and gives you 4/7/10% melee haste. (Previously just increased dodge by 1/2/3/4/5%)
Subtlety
- Sinister Calling now increases your total Agility by 15% and increases the percentage damage bonus of Backstab and Hemorrhage by an additional 2/4/6/8/10%. (Up from 1/2/3/4/5%)
Glyphs
- Glyph of Sap -- Increases the duration of Sap by 20 sec. (Old: 10 sec.)
- Glyph of Deadly Throw -- Increases the slowing effect on Deadly Throw by 10%. (Old: Increases the range on Deadly Throw by 5 yards.)
- Glyph of Adrenaline Rush -- Increases the duration of Adrenaline Rush by 5 sec. (Old: Decreases the cooldown of Adrenaline Rush by 60 sec.)
- Glyph of Sprint -- Increases the movement speed of your Sprint ability by an additional 30%. (Old: also reduced the duration by 5%)
- Glyph of Crippling Poison -- Increases the chance to inflict your target with Crippling Poison by an additional 20%. (Old: 10%)
- Glyph of Pick Lock -- Reduces the cast time of your Pick Lock ability by 100%. (Old: 75)
- Glyph of Hunger For Blood *new* -- Increases the bonus damage from Hunger For Blood by 3%
- Glyph of Killing Spree *new* -- Reduces the cooldown on Killing Spree by 45 sec.
- Glyph of Shadow Dance *new* -- Increases the duration of Shadow Dance by 4 sec.
- Glyph of Fan of Knives *new* -- Increases the damage done by Fan of Knives by 20%
- Glyph of Tricks of the Trade *new* -- Your Tricks of the Trade grants an additional 10% bonus damage to your target.
- Glyph of Mutilate *new* -- Reduces the cost of Mutilate by 5 energy.
- Glyph of Cloak of Shadows *new* -- While Cloak of Shadows is active, you take 40% less physical damage.
- Glyph of Backstab - Each time you Backstab, the duration of your Rupture on the target is extended 2 sec, up to a maximum of 6 sec. (Old - Increases the damage dealt by Backstab to stunned and incapacitated targets by 20%.)
Early Testing on PTR:
- Instant Poison - PPM appears to be between 7.99 and 9.16 if PPM is reduced by haste, if not, it could be between 7.43 and 8.52 PPM.
- Wound Poison - 21.27 - 21.76 PPM
- PPM believed to be normalized to 1.4 speed at current proc rate (i.e. WP is 50% with a 1.4 spd weapon), so slower weapons will get more poison procs than current.
- Deadly Poison - is not on the PPM, coefficient raised to 0.12*AP
- It appears Lightning Reflexes is not worth it for Mutilates, so traditional build still
- With the new Master Poisoner, fast OH still beats slow, so SR / WD is currently slated to be best to enter Ulduar with
Ok I'm probably going to be
saedo — Tue, 04/14/2009 - 16:22Ok I'm probably going to be asked this later, but this will be your 3.1 specs:
Mutilate: 51/13/7 - http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#f0ef0exoVboIuVo0xV0hZxb
There was some speculation of dropping 3 in RS for LR. But the modelling suggests it's not worth it. Your glyphs will be Mutilate, HfB, and Rupture. Maybe Tricks of the Trade if you use on a dps every CD (dropping Rupture). Of course 2 of these Glyphs are new, and will have to wait for someone to learn it.
Combat: Comes in 3 flavors
18/51/2 - http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#f0eb0eZMgVo0cxqru0xRtb
15/15/5 - http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#f0eb0xZMgVo0cxqru0xRtx
Both these are supposedly very very similar (within a tenth of a percent of each other). However, Vanilla Combat (15/51/5) appears to scale far better and will be the spec mid-end Ulduar.
The dark horse is 7/51/13, Serrated Blades. Testing is required to how it'll interact with the new Armor Pen system. But for now, it is assumed to have locked in below the other 2.
Remember, Mixed Weapon Specs are dead. Do not do 2 weapon specializations. Well, you can, but it's not optimal.
Glyphs are still the same old, SnD, Rupture, Sinister Strike. Though "certain" fights might allow Killing Spree, Adrenaline Rush, to help with the burst damage.
This was posted yesterday,
saedo — Thu, 04/09/2009 - 14:54This was posted yesterday, though not rogue related directly, it just means I lost a bet. lol
http://blue.mmo-champion.com/1/16137707674-t8-with-badges-of-valor-yes-o...
TLDR:
Today's minor PTR build:
saedo — Thu, 04/02/2009 - 17:46Today's minor PTR build:
This was in response to the Glyph of Backstab interacting with Dirty Deeds bug. But they also felt that would nerf the deep sub backstab builds so they buffed this talent to compensate.
Today's Patch Note changes:
saedo — Fri, 03/27/2009 - 13:42Today's Patch Note changes:
Still boring stuff lol
But one other thing that may be interesting:
This could mean we might be stockpiling glyphs and change em from boss to boss for that extra min-maxing.
Today's PTR build:
saedo — Thu, 03/26/2009 - 13:44Today's PTR build:
new build?
moriella — Thu, 03/26/2009 - 15:38Why cant I find notes on it?
It's on front page MMO:
saedo — Thu, 03/26/2009 - 15:47It's on front page MMO: http://www.mmo-champion.com/index.php?topic=46385.0
Doesn't seem like there's any priest changes, cept that glyph for a hymn thingy.
This from PTR: Master
saedo — Fri, 03/13/2009 - 15:21This from PTR:
Master Poisoner: Now also increases the bonus to apply Deadly Poison when Envenom is used by an additional 15/30/45%.
There's also a rumor going around that the Envenom Glyph will be removed cause it was too powerful. This does hit the slow-slow-no-rupture combo people were thinking about. But still just a rumor.
While I'm here, since I mentioned the other trinkets before I'll give a note out that they've updated the trinkets to new and appropriate stats/procs. No Wrathstone update yet though, but the others:
Edit: So more explaination. This Envenom talent pretty much makes Deadly Poison a 100% proc rate right after Envenom. So you can quickly restack in the next few attacks. The glyph made it so you didn't have to restack at all. The glyph would've made this talent useless. But this talent is almost as good as the glyph, So Rupture might have to be thrown back into the cycle. Though slow slow might depend on quality / speeds of dagger.
So here's the real
saedo — Sat, 03/14/2009 - 07:59So here's the real Wrathstone: http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/images/news/2009/march/wrathstonev2.jpg
Looks like an upgraded Mirror of Truth. Proc is far better though (20 sec duration vs 10). This ranks well above Greatness and Grim Toll for me. Estimate would be in the order of 100 dps above Greatness.
Appears this will be put in
saedo — Thu, 03/12/2009 - 14:02Appears this will be put in the PTR:
Hunger for Blood now lasts 1 min. Energy cost reduced from 30 to 15.
So makes it less annoying I guess.
New PTR Build gives us
saedo — Fri, 03/06/2009 - 14:29New PTR Build gives us this:
Glyph of Envenom -- Your Envenom ability no longer consumes Deadly Poison from your target.
Boost to Mutilate. Might kill the IP/IP/Evis builds though. And possibly invite the 2 slow weapon set up (SR/SR).
More related rogue news:
saedo — Fri, 03/06/2009 - 15:52More related rogue news: http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=15443531660&sid=1&...
It is in this build I believe. If not, then it is:
Armor Penetration Rating: All classes now receive 25% more benefit from Armor Penetration Rating.
Well this will make anything with Armor Pen in it go up in value. Very interesting.
As someone who also benefits
Derchlon — Fri, 03/06/2009 - 21:28As someone who also benefits from ArP, 25% extra benefit is quite sexy.
I'm ~6%, so if my napkin math is correct (assuming they're multiplicative and not additive), my new value would be approximately 6.3%? How would this affect you in your own gear Saedo?
So a follow up on this. I
saedo — Mon, 03/09/2009 - 15:53So a follow up on this. I did a bit of math on the [40256] and if it's not wrong... With the ArP 25% boost, it will become best in slot for me. Above [44253] even. This is giving me mixed feelings. lol Oh well, Greatness is still sexy.
But maybe I'm still missing a chunk of the mechanic changes which may affect it too. But still, initial findings, best in slot in 3.1 for combat rogues.
If it is indeed becoming a
Derchlon — Mon, 03/09/2009 - 16:16If it is indeed becoming a best in slot item for you, it makes sense that they would make it drop in Ulduar incase you passed on it previously. http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/images/news/2009/march/wrathstone.jpg
I bet they would share the same internal CD if its equip effects stay the same.
Right now people are thinking
saedo — Mon, 03/09/2009 - 16:34Right now people are thinking the trinkets are all placeholder items and not the real thing. Cause all trinkets that showed up kinda already exist:
[40257] = http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/images/news/2009/march/thegeneralshe... and http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/images/news/2009/march/heartofiron.jpg
[40373] = http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/images/news/2009/march/flareofthehea... and http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/images/news/2009/march/livingflame.jpg
Also all these are of a higher ilevel. The original ones are all 213. The new ones are all 226 or 239. So it won't make sense if they are exactly the same. One needs to be buffed, or the other nerfed. But the bet still is that they'll be completely different from the placeholders.
Effects me very little atm.
saedo — Fri, 03/06/2009 - 23:45Effects me very little atm. I only have one piece 28 ArP rating for 1.82% armor pen. The 25% more would give me 2.2875% armor pen.
It does possibly change ranking of some of the gear I want. I'll have to check a spreadsheet on it. It should def make [40256] sexier. Not Greatness sexy but still better.
Also more news from PTR, it appears Haste AND Expertise also got a 25% boost.So this really messes with my stats. Will have to check it out carefully. 3.1 is gonna be a big change.
Edit: My bad. It seems Rogues weren't included in the haste boost.
Haste Rating: Shamans, Paladins, Druids, and Death Knights now receive 30% more melee haste from Haste Rating
Edit2: The exp change may not have been intended: http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=15443252023&pageNo...
Latest Patch: Shiv: This
saedo — Fri, 02/27/2009 - 12:06Latest Patch:
Shiv: This ability can no longer generate a critical strike, and the poisons it applies cannot be critical strikes either.
Another attempt to kill combat shiv specs.
Oh yea there's also this glyph that could be of interest:
Glyph of Backstab - Each time you Backstab, the duration of your Rupture on the target is extended 2 sec, up to a maximum of 6 sec. (Old - Increases the damage dealt by Backstab to stunned and incapacitated targets by 20%.)
Though combat daggers stil suck with it. Maybe better for Sub builds.
So from the PTR we got this
saedo — Tue, 02/24/2009 - 11:47So from the PTR we got this from rogue thus far:
Skills
Assassination
Combat
Glyphs
Combat Shiv and PPM
saedo — Wed, 02/25/2009 - 12:34Might as well post this up too: http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=15276980185&pageNo...
It's GC on Combat Shiv (made another comeback in 3.0.9), and how they don't want it like that. Also on PPM poisons to allow less focus on speed of weapons:
Shiv is an ability primarily designed to get poisons on a target quickly. It is primarily a PvP ability. We don't want to just nerf it for PvE or it kills what it is doing for PvP. But it is not ideal that it makes a main ability like Sinister Strike look like poo. And we can't just buff Sinister Strike et al. (more on that below).
I understand that rogues, and particularly optimized players, will gravitate towards whatever spec and rotation maximizes their dps. That's cool, but it doesn't mean that we should just celebrate any bizarre way to play that comes up just because that happens to maximize dps.
I also understand how from a player point of view it always makes sense that when you see a big number and a bunch of little numbers that we should buff all the little numbers. It may be fun, but it rarely makes sense from our point of view. For starters, it causes game inflation at a much faster rate (and it is already pretty fast). It makes us have to buff other classes that are supposed to be on par with the target class. It might even make us buff encounters. That is a lot of work with a lot of risk compared to lowering perhaps a single number.
We are committed to improving rogues in PvE, and we have had trouble doing that without a major patch because small tweaks tend to have ripples throughout the class, making whole trees too good or too bad in PvE or PvP. But 3.1 is a major patch and we can touch as many things as we need to touch to get to the target we want.
Rogues have always had a problem where weapon speed can trump all, and we are seeing it now where blue weapons like Librarian's Paper Cutter can out-perfom much better weapon just because of the weapon speed. Usually when chance per hit is pushing players into doing unusual things like this it is because hits are being over-emphasized, and fast weapons hit more often. Our usual solution to that is to go to a proc per minute where slow weapons proc more often per swing than fast weapons so weapon speed itself becomes a lot less relevant compared to other other stats on the item and players actually have the option of benefiting from a higher level item that drops, rather than having to pass on it because it isn't 1.4 speed or whatever.
Confirmed HfB glyph will be
saedo — Wed, 02/25/2009 - 11:47Confirmed HfB glyph will be 3%: http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=15276980185&sid=1&...
The HfB glyph is, if I recall correctly, just a flat 3% to the ability and doesn't mention stacks.
In other news, I'll report inital theorycrafting on how poison PPM affects Mutilate:
So here's the 3.0.9 changes
saedo — Mon, 02/09/2009 - 11:24So here's the 3.0.9 changes
Overall this is a buff, SnD across the board for everyone, prob a 5% boost.
For mutilate, it's strange, would have to take these 2 points together:
Decreasing Mutilate damage by 20% (flat bonus yes is 30%, but modifier ratio is 1.2/1.5 = 0.8), which works out to be about maybe 4.5% of your damage nerfed.
But, HfB is increased by 6%, so it more than covers it.
Assuming 3.1 changes are still coming, this seems like a bandaid solution to buff rogues, while nerfing Mutilate burst damage in PvP. Raid wise, mutilate itself is boosted about 1.5%, then all specs got a 5% damage boost with SnD, though it prob affects combat a bit more than mutilate, maybe.
So overall a 6.5% boost to about every raid rogue with a nerf to pvp burst damage.
Implications to Mutilate
saedo — Tue, 02/10/2009 - 15:16Prob should've mentioned earlier.
One change is the speed got a boost in value for Mutilate as well due to SnD buff. So [Webbed Death] is now further in the lead, with [40368] popping up second over [Sinister Revenge].
HfB Follow Up
saedo — Mon, 02/09/2009 - 13:03Confirmed that they're still going with what they said they're gonna do in 3.1: http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=14990761622&pageNo...
The damage increase is for 3.09. The mechanic increase is for 3.1. We probably confused some people by announcing the much larger 3.1 changes first.
Implications to Combat
saedo — Mon, 02/09/2009 - 12:15Further note, this 10% increase to SnD affects combat in various ways:
Patch 3.1
saedo — Wed, 02/04/2009 - 22:42Blue posted on some changes:
More on Killing Spree now:
saedo — Thu, 02/05/2009 - 00:13More on Killing Spree now: http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=14910582413&pageNo...
Just imagine it is exactly like the current Killing Spree except that your dps goes up while Killing Spree is active.
Here's some follow up from GC
saedo — Wed, 02/04/2009 - 23:22Here's some follow up from GC about HfB:
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=14910582358&pageNo...
The idea with Hunger for Blood is you will probably have bleeds available from other classes in a raid setting (and even if you didn't you can add them yourself). But in PvP it will require an extra step to really benefit from HfB and thus tone down Assassination burst damage a little.
There are more related changes, some sooner and some in 3.1. We didn't want to list every single change, just a sampling.
Expanded on HFB
saedo — Thu, 02/05/2009 - 11:17GC again clairifying on HfB: http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=14910582358&sid=1&...
The idea with Hunger for Blood is you will probably have bleeds available from other classes in a raid setting (and even if you didn't you can add them yourself). We are making several changes to rogue talents and abilities. Some are coming before 3.1. Some of them are definitely with the intention of toning down PvP burst. If we buff HfB and change some other rogue abilities, there is a risk that HfB will end up getting used for PvP. The extra bleed requirement should help discourage that and thus still satisfy our goal to tone down Assassination burst damage a little.
New in the latest PTR:
saedo — Thu, 01/15/2009 - 12:00New in the latest PTR:
So this is a nerf to that big burst ambush crit in PvP. But in return looks like it gave another combo point for compensation.
PvE wise, this might make a decent Mutilate opener again. Previously you'd mutilate at start even if mob is unpoisoned cause it gave you more combo points. Now that Ambush is gonna do the same, it might be better to start it with, assuming unpoisoned boss at the start still.